About to try reptiles, need ideas :)

[Deadliestviper7]

Wouldn't the small size of the frogs make them snacks for the geckos? I like the blue day gecko. Would that work with dendrobates?

Dendrobates would probably get along well with the blue geks

 

[Deadliestviper7]

Wouldn't the small size of the frogs make them snacks for the geckos? I like the blue day gecko. Would that work with dendrobates?

Dendrobates would probably get along well with the blue geks

 

[Madou]

What's your budget? Chahoua and prehensiletail geckos and arboreal alligator lizards are really cool, but pricey.

Mourning geckos are cheaper, and very small, but they breed asexually and you can end up with a huge breeding colony. Will probably work with dart frogs as well.

A harem of emerald swifts perhaps? They are live bearers too which makes breeding easier.

Smol tree frogs (pacific chorus, green, barking, grey, red eye, etc) combined with crocodile skink could be pretty cool.

White's and waxy tree frogs are pretty nice as well and may work with giant day geckos.

I don't have a budget in mind, but I don't intend on spending a fortune on my first project. The alligator lizards are sweet, but yeah, that's not the budget I want to spend this one time. Once I switch from my 180 gal channa tank, for bigger, I might use the tank for a more appropriate setup for bigger, better and more expensive critters.

I like the idea of the croc skink and tree frogs, but since I really want a water piece, however small, I find that it might not be enough room for the croc skink, and I don't believe they make as much use of the upper levels as geckos would. If I'm wrong, that is to be tried then!

I am not a gambler, though, if like viridis said, it's like fish and therefore more often miss than hit, I'd rather settle for not mixing. If it is anything higher than 20-30% chances of failure, those are not odds I will take.

Thanks for taking the time, though, and hopefully you will reassure me about the odds of failure and tell me I was silly to think so.

 

[Deadliestviper7]

I don't have a budget in mind, but I don't intend on spending a fortune on my first project. The alligator lizards are sweet, but yeah, that's not the budget I want to spend this one time. Once I switch from my 180 gal channa tank, for bigger, I might use the tank for a more appropriate setup for bigger, better and more expensive critters.

I like the idea of the croc skink and tree frogs, but since I really want a water piece, however small, I find that it might not be enough room for the croc skink, and I don't believe they make as much use of the upper levels as geckos would. If I'm wrong, that is to be tried then!

I am not a gambler, though, if like viridis said, it's like fish and therefore more often miss than hit, I'd rather settle for not mixing. If it is anything higher than 20-30% chances of failure, those are not odds I will take.

Thanks for taking the time, though, and hopefully you will reassure me about the odds of failure and tell me I was silly to think so.

A mertens water monitor would be cool for the 180.

However if you do the entire bottom with a few inches of water you could put upright standing bits of corkwood that connect over the water, where they connect you could add epipytic plants, you can go and get some mesh to make a screened box for more vertical space.
You could then add more geckos and such.

 

[Audaxcity]

Not necessarily more miss than hit. If you take care in selecting the species for mix setups, I'd argue its more hit than miss. The problem is the unpredictable bacterial factor. Its usually a moot factor, but considering some beneficial bacteria one species has may be lethal to the next, you may get horrific results. Unpredictable non feeding aggression is there as well, but usually less of a problem.

I do know of one combination that definitely works longterm as I've seen it first hand: dart frogs and medium-large snakes (specifically rainbow boas)

 

[Madou]

Not necessarily more miss than hit. If you take care in selecting the species for mix setups, I'd argue its more hit than miss. The problem is the unpredictable bacterial factor. Its usually a moot factor, but considering some beneficial bacteria one species has may be lethal to the next, you may get horrific results. Unpredictable non feeding aggression is there as well, but usually less of a problem.

I do know of one combination that definitely works longterm as I've seen it first hand: dart frogs and medium-large snakes (specifically rainbow boas)

Just to make sure I understood the concept correctly:
There basically are no species that work all the time, some do, some don't, and it's all trial and error?

That's kind of the idea behind most hobbies, but that's probably not where I want to start.

Guess I have plenty of time until the terrarium is setup and blooming to make my mind on a species.

 

[Audaxcity]

Almost. There are species that work together all the time, but due to often unforseeable factors, which ones they are are partially up to trial and error, and such matchups are fairly far and few in between though they do exist.

On the other hand, there are species that work sometimes despite forseeable problems. Zoos will often keep such species together with no consequences, an example of this being Russian Tortoises+Bearded Dragons.

 

[Viridis]

I may have extensive knowledge of fish, especially Channa, I am an uter neophyte when it comes to reptiles, so your post, while some don't like people "teaching" them stuff, is a gold mine and I thank you for it!

As a channa lover, I am quite acuainted to sacrificing entire tanks to just one specie, and even just two fish, so the concept isn't bothering me too much, I was just thinking of adding some diversity in colors. Was mainly thinking of dendrobates and some small gecko, but if it is indeed a problem, I won't go through with the idea, which means I have to find the perfect species for this thing.

Successful mixed tanks have been done with Dendrobates and small arboreal geckos (Lygodactylus, small Phelsuma, Gonatodes, &c.); I still wouldn't recommend it. Keeping each species individually for a while first allows you to understand their behaviour much more than throwing them in a tank with another species.

I am not sure of what an exo terra is, but mine is basically a tank with assembled panes extending it upwards, with 2 sliding doors on the front. So the bottom is leak proof, the top, not so much.

This is an Exo Terra. They make one roughly 60cmx45cmx90cm.

Will try to answer some points with what I had in mind, since I don't have the knowledge:
2. I'll post a pic of what I'd like, I was still trying to figure out how to make it look good as i'm terrible at DYI backgrounds, but I found out Xaxim is a thing, which would make my life a whole lot easier! I basically intend to have rain dropping from the pump through a pierced bendable pipe in a spiral, either continually, or X times a day (if it's noisy, i'll have to keep to that, but it'll be running a month prior to introduction of anything, as I assume both scenarios don't allow for the same species).

Xaxim is an awesome product! Another one commonly used in Europe is pressed cork sheets. They last for years, are super easy to install, and plants grow well on it.

If you are planning on having the water pump in the bottom of the viv, I'd go with an external water source, and have an overflow/drain under the false bottom to get rid of excess water. Having a pump under the false bottom will end up being a pain in the butt. They are very prone to clogging under there, and trying to access it after the plants have grown in is more work than necessary, and ends up making a mess.

3. As forementioned, was hoping for dendrobates and small geckos, still a bad idea? Nothing that comes out as compatible? I don't really need to have the whole thing crawling with critters, but diversity is nice (though I have that with just dendrobates I guess).

As mentioned above, it has worked, but I still wouldn't recommend it. At the end of the day, nobody can stop you.

The same issues apply with mixing different Dendrobatids together. In fact, the majority of Dendrobatid keepers are vehemently against it. It would be like telling a hardcore Killifish breeder to mix localities . Take a look at Dendroboard.

4. Picture at the bottom for this one too. That is what I want, and since I would like water at the bottom, I'm aiming for as much usable places up in the air (branches, small platforms, long leaved plants, etc) to avoid repeating the mistake I did with my chameleon that basically sat in one place because he didn't have much other choices.

I actually know the guy who built that tank. He only kept D. leucomelas in it last I heard.

5. Same logic as fish, so I would probably have thought of hiding places, or at the very least, things that break line of sight. Nothing worse than a bullied animal letting itself die... in the best case scenario.

6. Explained in 5, and it's still in my head, I have the terra, but it is still empty. I'm still trying to figure out decoration, so I am still able to bend the tank to the species rather than the opposite.

IF you end up do going the mixed route, I'd recommend filling the canopy with branches. Really stuff them in there. This would not only increase usable surface area, it would also create more visual barriers, giving any animals a higher sense of security. Someting like this:

[Found on Google images. couldn't find original poster; only Pinterest posts]

[Original post]

These aren't multispecies tanks, just examples of what I mean.

I do get your point though, same goes with channas where everyone saw videos of a guy that kept them with other fish, so they all think it's doable, but we rarely see the same guy posting 6 months later.

Thanks a lot for taking the time, by the way. Learning is probably my favorite part of the hobby (be it fish or scaly critters), and passing on knowledge when it is acquired is a close second.

Here's what I found that looks like what I want (except mine will be taller so I assume darker at the bottom)

Exactly. The majority of the mixed tanks usually end up failing for one reason or another. Whether it's improper quarantine (or not doing it at all), improper setup for one or more of the species, aggression, predation, &c.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying you won't be successful, I'd just rather see people succeed with numerous single species tanks than fail with a mixed tank, then they shy away from herps.

What's your budget? Chahoua and prehensiletail geckos and arboreal alligator lizards are really cool, but pricey.

Mourning geckos are cheaper, and very small, but they breed asexually and you can end up with a huge breeding colony. Will probably work with dart frogs as well.

A harem of emerald swifts perhaps? They are live bearers too which makes breeding easier.

Smol tree frogs (pacific chorus, green, barking, grey, red eye, etc) combined with crocodile skink could be pretty cool.

White's and waxy tree frogs are pretty nice as well and may work with giant day geckos.

Livebearing makes it easier on us, but doesn't necessarily make them easier to breed.

Pacific chorus(Pseudacris regilla), green(Hyla cinerea), barking(Hyla gratiosa), grey(Hyla versicolor), and RETF (Agalychnis callidryas) require different conditions than Tribolonotus spp. The first 4 require cooler conditions (some more than the others), and the RETF require slightly drier conditions (maybe not drier, but more airflow for sure). These species are also almost always wild-caught, so there are more chances for novel pathogens.

I like the idea of the croc skink and tree frogs, but since I really want a water piece, however small, I find that it might not be enough room for the croc skink, and I don't believe they make as much use of the upper levels as geckos would. If I'm wrong, that is to be tried then!

Another thing to consider is if the water area is too small, it's essentially useless, and you might as well just have a water bowl. the small ponds tend to fill up with soil, organic matter, &c. really quickly. If adding a water section, I'd make it a decent size; unless you don't mind cleaning it out regularly.

I am not a gambler, though, if like viridis said, it's like fish and therefore more often miss than hit, I'd rather settle for not mixing. If it is anything higher than 20-30% chances of failure, those are not odds I will take.

Thanks for taking the time, though, and hopefully you will reassure me about the odds of failure and tell me I was silly to think so.

Not necessarily more miss than hit. If you take care in selecting the species for mix setups, I'd argue its more hit than miss. The problem is the unpredictable bacterial factor. Its usually a moot factor, but considering some beneficial bacteria one species has may be lethal to the next, you may get horrific results. Unpredictable non feeding aggression is there as well, but usually less of a problem.

I do know of one combination that definitely works longterm as I've seen it first hand: dart frogs and medium-large snakes (specifically rainbow boas)

For beginners, I'd say it's far more miss than hit. The only times I've ever seen mixed species tanks that were over a year or two old were from hobbyists with years of experience keeping each species separately; or from zoos.

A mertens water monitor would be cool for the 180.

However if you do the entire bottom with a few inches of water you could put upright standing bits of corkwood that connect over the water, where they connect you could add epipytic plants, you can go and get some mesh to make a screened box for more vertical space.
You could then add more geckos and such.

V. mertensi in a 180?? That would be like putting an adult Pogona vitticeps in a 20gal long. I would not put a 3' lizard in a 6' tank. That's really not a lot of room to move around, and likely not enough for a heat gradient either. I'd double the size at least. Maybe as a temporary tank.

I definitely wouldn't add other animals (other than more V.mertensi) to a tank with them in it. They are going to eat anything that fits in their mouth; fish, crustacean, reptile, amphibian, anything.

Just to make sure I understood the concept correctly:
There basically are no species that work all the time, some do, some don't, and it's all trial and error?

That's kind of the idea behind most hobbies, but that's probably not where I want to start.

Guess I have plenty of time until the terrarium is setup and blooming to make my mind on a species.

Almost. There are species that work together all the time, but due to often unforseeable factors, which ones they are are partially up to trial and error, and such matchups are fairly far and few in between though they do exist.

On the other hand, there are species that work sometimes despite forseeable problems. Zoos will often keep such species together with no consequences, an example of this being Russian Tortoises+Bearded Dragons.

Russian tortoise and bearded dragon? What an odd zoo-exhibit....


There are some mixes that work quite well such as
-Dendrobates spp. and South American Gonatodes spp.
-Dendrobates spp. and Small sympatric treefrogs (Dendropsophus sp., Hyalinobatrachium sp., &c.)

But even then, it's still a bit of trial and error. And they didn't use WC animals. Also note that the compatible species are found in the same area, and often similar niches.

Alright, I'm done rambling.
Sorry for the essay! haha

 

[Madou]

Alright, I'm done rambling.
Sorry for the essay! haha

I wanted to quote what you said part by part, but I didn't want to take even more of your time so i'll quote only this.

Nobody should ever apologize for helping others, and I have to say, these are precious and helpful informations.

I am not quite set on everything yet, not even the species, or even if I feel like spending 200€ on Xaxim (that thing gets pricy!).

I'm even tempted to convert my 180g channa tank into a terra just because I need something new, and I'm kind of stuck with weight since I live in an appartment, and I know I won't get bigger until it's time to buy my own house.
But dedicating that big tank for a single species might be what keeps me at bay with just the smaller terra. Everyone has to start somewhere, but I find a beautifuly decorated terra to be easier to look at than a fish tank, just because it looks so natural when well done.

I'll keep thinking it through, and again, thank you for all the precious informations.

 

[Deadliestviper7]

Successful mixed tanks have been done with Dendrobates and small arboreal geckos (Lygodactylus, small Phelsuma, Gonatodes, &c.); I still wouldn't recommend it. Keeping each species individually for a while first allows you to understand their behaviour much more than throwing them in a tank with another species.





This is an Exo Terra. They make one roughly 60cmx45cmx90cm.




Xaxim is an awesome product! Another one commonly used in Europe is pressed cork sheets. They last for years, are super easy to install, and plants grow well on it.

If you are planning on having the water pump in the bottom of the viv, I'd go with an external water source, and have an overflow/drain under the false bottom to get rid of excess water. Having a pump under the false bottom will end up being a pain in the butt. They are very prone to clogging under there, and trying to access it after the plants have grown in is more work than necessary, and ends up making a mess.



As mentioned above, it has worked, but I still wouldn't recommend it. At the end of the day, nobody can stop you.

The same issues apply with mixing different Dendrobatids together. In fact, the majority of Dendrobatid keepers are vehemently against it. It would be like telling a hardcore Killifish breeder to mix localities . Take a look at Dendroboard.




I actually know the guy who built that tank. He only kept D. leucomelas in it last I heard.



IF you end up do going the mixed route, I'd recommend filling the canopy with branches. Really stuff them in there. This would not only increase usable surface area, it would also create more visual barriers, giving any animals a higher sense of security. Someting like this:

[Found on Google images. couldn't find original poster; only Pinterest posts]

[Original post]

These aren't multispecies tanks, just examples of what I mean.




Exactly. The majority of the mixed tanks usually end up failing for one reason or another. Whether it's improper quarantine (or not doing it at all), improper setup for one or more of the species, aggression, predation, &c.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying you won't be successful, I'd just rather see people succeed with numerous single species tanks than fail with a mixed tank, then they shy away from herps.




Livebearing makes it easier on us, but doesn't necessarily make them easier to breed.

Pacific chorus(Pseudacris regilla), green(Hyla cinerea), barking(Hyla gratiosa), grey(Hyla versicolor), and RETF (Agalychnis callidryas) require different conditions than Tribolonotus spp. The first 4 require cooler conditions (some more than the others), and the RETF require slightly drier conditions (maybe not drier, but more airflow for sure). These species are also almost always wild-caught, so there are more chances for novel pathogens.



Another thing to consider is if the water area is too small, it's essentially useless, and you might as well just have a water bowl. the small ponds tend to fill up with soil, organic matter, &c. really quickly. If adding a water section, I'd make it a decent size; unless you don't mind cleaning it out regularly.






For beginners, I'd say it's far more miss than hit. The only times I've ever seen mixed species tanks that were over a year or two old were from hobbyists with years of experience keeping each species separately; or from zoos.





V. mertensi in a 180?? That would be like putting an adult Pogona vitticeps in a 20gal long. I would not put a 3' lizard in a 6' tank. That's really not a lot of room to move around, and likely not enough for a heat gradient either. I'd double the size at least. Maybe as a temporary tank.

I definitely wouldn't add other animals (other than more V.mertensi) to a tank with them in it. They are going to eat anything that fits in their mouth; fish, crustacean, reptile, amphibian, anything.







Russian tortoise and bearded dragon? What an odd zoo-exhibit....


There are some mixes that work quite well such as
-Dendrobates spp. and South American Gonatodes spp.
-Dendrobates spp. and Small sympatric treefrogs (Dendropsophus sp., Hyalinobatrachium sp., &c.)

But even then, it's still a bit of trial and error. And they didn't use WC animals. Also note that the compatible species are found in the same area, and often similar niches.

Alright, I'm done rambling.
Sorry for the essay! haha

Mixed species tanks are the most interesting to me, and I recommend you research each species individually before doing so,
Many reptile keepers are paranoid about mixed species tanks, its more of a random phobia than anything rational.

And where the heck are you seeing 3 foot mertens? I never see any get over two foot,and most were smaller.