Ah... the pipe dream...

[TheBloodyIrish]

There seem to be two things that stop people from taking care of fish properly: they assume that they have the right size tank for their fish or that there is a self-fix solution to maintaince of the tanks.

Remember those additives that people use that cause more damage to the tank population than help the water? Remember the people that buy aglae eaters and bottom feeders and find out they still have to vacuum the gravel and scrub the glass, or finding out that the bottom feeders they bought don't actually clean up the biological waste but rather prey on small or sleeping fish?

You gotta admit, who would not like the idea of a tank or a small pond that that is maintaining itself? I means, some of the DIYers came up with automatic water changers and complex filtering system.

Is it even possible to get a self-maintaining tank like a large outdoor pond someday? I don't think so, unless we developed a robot for the common people that can afford it.

 

[spds31]

Is it even possible to get a self-maintaining tank like a large outdoor pond someday?

It's only possible with a very low fish load relative to the size of the pond. Throw some minnows in a koi pond, and it'll do fine by itself. Put koi in there, and you're back to doing weekly 10-20 percent water changes. And yes, you still have to do water changes with large ponds; for some reason, a lot of people assume otherwise.

 

[TheBloodyIrish]

It's only possible with a very low fish load relative to the size of the pond. Throw some minnows in a koi pond, and it'll do fine by itself. Put koi in there, and you're back to doing weekly 10-20 percent water changes. And yes, you still have to do water changes with large ponds; for some reason, a lot of people assume otherwise.

True, it is how you define how the pond was made or how large it is. Artifical ones are not going to be able to maintain themselves, but natural ones seem to work fine for some reason.

 

[spds31]

Natural ponds have the added benefit of not being lined; so you have mud/sludge at the bottom and in surrounding areas, which harbors all kinds of small organisms. Add to that the vigorous growth of vegetation and (sometimes) a stream feeding into it, and it's easy to see why it works.

The problem with most artificial ponds is that people want them to look too clean/neat. And they want the water to be crystal clear so it's easier to view the fish. But it all comes at the expense of increased maintenance.

 

[TheBloodyIrish]

Ah. Heh. That make logical sense, but I am assuming a lot of people don't know that.

It's just silly that people want a self-maintaining system. My mom talked on the phone how she would love to maintain a 500 gallon pool in my old room. Here the catch, she doesn't want to take care of of the pond itself, but she would maintain the filter system. I have seen automatic water changers, chillers, current / riffle / wavemaker systems, automatic feeders, and water aging tanks. The only thing I have not seen is cheap affordable protein skimmers for freshwater and a waste removal system.

Go figure.

 

[me_wee_todded]

my friend has a large manmade stock tank on his farm that is self sustaining.
all the fish are still alive and there is only help from people when we throw game organs in it.

but this thing is VERY VERY BIG.

 

[TheBloodyIrish]

Nice, got any picture of it? You know what I find funny, most of what we want have to be DIY, or have a lot of money to purchase it. Face it, there is no money in a self-subtaining tank for companies.

Have any successfully pulled off a waste removal yet?

Example: http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32128&highlight=waste+removal

 

[spds31]

Dude, you should check out some koi pond sites if you're looking for ideas. Most larger ponds have a bottom drain for waste removal. The problem with that in an aquarium is dealing with the substrate. But most of the ponds still have to be cleaned occasionally anyway.

You're better off with a well-designed circulation system with under-gravel jets and/or a custom intake system.

 

[Dr Joe]

Well, don't know where this came from...but I think it should be in the lounge.

.

There seem to be two things that stop people from taking care of fish properly: they assume that they have the right size tank for their fish or that there is a self-fix solution to maintaince of the tanks.

Remember those additives that people use that cause more damage to the tank population than help the water? Remember the people that buy aglae eaters and bottom feeders and find out they still have to vacuum the gravel and scrub the glass, or finding out that the bottom feeders they bought don't actually clean up the biological waste but rather prey on small or sleeping fish?

You gotta admit, who would not like the idea of a tank or a small pond that that is maintaining itself? I means, some of the DIYers came up with automatic water changers and complex filtering system.

Is it even possible to get a self-maintaining tank like a large outdoor pond someday? I don't think so, unless we developed a robot for the common people that can afford it.

I don't even know where to start...There is only one thing that keeps people from taking proper care of their fish...Ignorance.

What additives are you speaking of? Some people have a problem when using additives improperly (ignorance).

If someone were to buy algae eaters or bottom feeders to remove feces did it out of ignorance.

I have a 20,000g self-contained/self-sustained pond...so yes it is possible.

.

True, it is how you define how the pond was made or how large it is. Artifical ones are not going to be able to maintain themselves, but natural ones seem to work fine for some reason.

See above.

.

Natural ponds have the added benefit of not being lined; so you have mud/sludge at the bottom and in surrounding areas, which harbors all kinds of small organisms. Add to that the vigorous growth of vegetation and (sometimes) a stream feeding into it, and it's easy to see why it works.quote]

Natural ponds are usually down into the groundwater level or they would just drain out.

Man-made ponds usually have a clay bottom liner to prevent the above from happening.

And if a stream is feeding an area it usually isn't considered a pond because it has to drain out too.

.

Ah. Heh. That make logical sense, but I am assuming a lot of people don't know that.

It's just silly that people want a self-maintaining system. My mom talked on the phone how she would love to maintain a 500 gallon pool in my old room. Here the catch, she doesn't want to take care of of the pond itself, but she would maintain the filter system. I have seen automatic water changers, chillers, current / riffle / wavemaker systems, automatic feeders, and water aging tanks. The only thing I have not seen is cheap affordable protein skimmers for freshwater and a waste removal system.

Go figure.

Never assume anything.

Some people want a carefree system and some people want the joys of an aquarium but are not capable of learning the maintenance of one and are willing to admitt this, so ignorance would not apply here.

You say your Mother would like a 500g pool? Is that a pond or a tank? S/W or F/W?

Protein skimmers are not a necessity for F/W systems since W/Ds are viable.

.

my friend has a large manmade stock tank on his farm that is self sustaining.
all the fish are still alive and there is only help from people when we throw game organs in it.

but this thing is VERY VERY BIG.

Game organs??? Is this a soup stock tank?!

.

Nice, got any picture of it? You know what I find funny, most of what we want have to be DIY, or have a lot of money to purchase it. Face it, there is no money in a self-subtaining tank for companies.

Have any successfully pulled off a waste removal yet?

Example: http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32128&highlight=waste+removal

There's money in it for the people selling the original equipment .

There have been several commercial systems for waste removal over the years, they were either expensive or difficult to retrofix into a system. But it is viable as Oddball's drawing shows.

Dr Joe

.

 

[TheBloodyIrish]

Well, don't know where this came from...but I think it should be in the lounge.

Well, it is related to setup and filtration since that seem to be the problem with most "ignorant" fishkeepers. The idea of a setup where you don't have to do anything is known as the "pipe dream" among the hobbyists that I know personally. I am not sure what you guys call this idea.

I don't even know where to start...There is only one thing that keeps people from taking proper care of their fish...Ignorance.

What additives are you speaking of? Some people have a problem when using additives improperly (ignorance).

If someone were to buy algae eaters or bottom feeders to remove feces did it out of ignorance.

Ah, com'on, it is not of ignorance. It is because our society is accoustomed to the idea of instant satisification. People, at large, do not want to "work", they want instant results. Pet stores taking advantage of this cultural development are not helping hobbyists either. I know a few that know their stuff, but they intentally act dumb just to squeeze the most money out of an uneducated person. You gotta admit, "ignorance is bliss" and it make good money too.

You have to admit, there is a fair amount out there that got in their head that they bought a self-sufficent mini-ecosystem. If you're looking for anyone to blame, blame the people that have the intent to misinform people just to make a quick buck.

Some people want a carefree system and some people want the joys of an aquarium but are not capable of learning the maintenance of one and are willing to admitt this, so ignorance would not apply here.

You say your Mother would like a 500g pool? Is that a pond or a tank? S/W or F/W?

She want an indoor pond in my old room, which has a shower and sink hookup in it. I am not sure if she want FW or SW since she just expressed desire and how my stepfather never got around to finishing or even starting the project. Since my family is made of DIYers and some of us are fairly educated when it come to pumps, electricity, computers and carpertry, I told her I might see how I can jerry-rig one up. However, I haven't seen an effective way to remove solids completely from the substrate other than actually doing the maintaince.

However, I told her it might not be possible since so many people advised me not to take on such a fest since not all of it is possible.

There have been several commercial systems for waste removal over the years, they were either expensive or difficult to retrofix into a system. But it is viable as Oddball's drawing shows.

Yet, there are so many fishkeepers, who consider themselves as among the most educated hobbyists, saying it is not possible to include into the design of a hobbyist tank. Yet, I see DIY projects that feature these systems; unfortunately none of the ones I seen are willing to disclose what their system is.