BB and nitrate

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esoxlucius

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Just thinking out loud here really guys but i've stumped myself. We know that continued exposure to high levels of nitrate are not good for our fish and other aquatic life but what about our colonies of BB?? Are our friends Nitrobacter and Nitrosomnas totally immune to nitrate or, if we take a hypothetical scenario where we allowed out nitrate to creep onwards and upwards unchecked, is there a level where they'd start dying, in effect, ending the nitrogen cycle. And if so, what level ppm wise would we be looking at, possibly in the 1000's ppm?
 
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I believe a long time ago, this was called "old tank syndrome".
And I believe it is different for different tank sizes, and water change routines.
My guess is it happens most often in small tanks (100 gallons or less) because they get overwhelmed so fast, (unless heavily planted) and especially if a generalized "by the book" water change routine is used, instead of one based on actual testing of parameters.
And when large fish are held in too small tanks, or very overstocked.
Nitrate is a waste product of beneficial bacteria so........what's that saying? "you don't s...where you eat!"
 
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I believe a long time ago, this was called "old tank syndrome".
And I believe it is different for different tank sizes, and water change routines.
My guess is it happens most often in small tanks (100 gallons or less) because they get overwhelmed so fast, (unless heavily planted) and especially if a generalized "by the book" water change routine is used, instead of one based on actual testing of parameters.
And when large fish are held in too small tanks, or very overstocked.
Nitrate is a waste product of beneficial bacteria so........what's that saying? "you don't s...where you eat!"

I believe it's the nitrobacter that process the nitrite and turn it into nitrate. So basically the nitrobacter could end up killing itself with it's own waste!! Have any studies put any figures on the ppm needed to do this?
 
Interesting idea, I'm sure they have researched it somewhere. Starting in the spring I will have access to peer reviewed articles I'll have to take a look and see if I can find one.
 
If you get nitrate high enough you would have an explosion in different algae species that consume it so i doubt its possible to get it that high except under laboratory conditions. Also it would be food limited, everything else would be long dead and have decomposed completely before it got to those levels so again it is likely that it is self limiting.
 
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The latest scientific research done on freshwater RAS (recirculating aquaculture systems) suggests that the dominant nitrifiers in filters are not bacteria but archaea of the type AOA amoA, comammox amoA (complete oxydizing bacteria) and Nitrospira as the dominant nitrite-oxidizing bacteria (NOB)

Although, AOA were numerically dominant over AOB, a presumed third ammonia-oxidizer was also present in the biofilter sand matrix. Identification of Nitrospira-like amoA (Figure (Figure7B)7B) in the biofilter and the strong correlation between the abundance of the Nitrospira nxrB uwm-2 gene and this Nitrospira amoA, suggests a complete ammonia-oxidizing Nitrospiraspp. resides in the UWM biofilter. In fact, we found that the comammox amoA was the most abundant ammonia-oxidizing gene in the biofilter (on average 1.9X that of AOA amoA)

In our system, we did not detect Nitrobacter, whose physiological constraints are often used when calculating RAS biofiltration capacity. Instead we identified Nitrospira as the dominant nitrite-oxidizing bacteria (NOB)


Nitrospira in this system and several other RAS (Schreier et al., 2010; van Kessel et al., 2010; Auffret et al., 2013; Brown et al., 2013; Kruse et al., 2013) indicates there is a versatile metabolic network driving RAS biofilter nitrification. For example, nitrite-oxidizing Nitrospira spp. possess a diverse array of metabolic pathways, and have been shown experimentally to hydrolyze urea and cyanate to ammonia, thereby initiating nitrification through cross-feeding with AOA/AOB. This process is counter to the supposed role of nitrite oxidizers solely as converters of nitrite to nitrate (Daims et al., 2016

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5276851/

Similar data is found in marine shrimp RAS systems:

marine RAS culturing white shrimp in a maturation system, were dominated by Nitrosopumilus-like AOA and Nitrospira marina-like bacteria (Nitrospirasublineage IV). The AOA were particularly abundant in the biofilter compartment containing oyster shells. importance in determining the outcome of the competition.

https://academic.oup.com/femsec/article/83/1/17/466220

I personally have not come across any study suggesting nitrifiers are sensitive to nitrate but there is evidence in studies suggesting the they are sensitive to the ammonia and nitrite concentrations and that determines the dominant nitrifier types.
 
Probably more technically accurate to say BM(icrobes) or nitrifying microbes, but for me it's like calling random Heros species severums or random Mesonauta festivum, not technically correct, but, whatever. PFK had an article a few years ago reporting on some of this, and how these microbes are much more resilient than is commonly believed.

What I get out of what I've read is the particular 'demographics' (to anthropomorphize for the sake of convenience) of an aquarium microbe community apparently varies according to conditions. Salt, vs. brackish vs. freshwater vs. nitrogen load... temperature, dissolved oxygen, nutrient profile (and I suspect other factors affecting available nutrients, like plants, algae, substrate-- sand vs. dirt tank, for example)

Example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23705006/
Nitrospira is the major autotrophic nitrite oxidizer in these brackish systems with high nitrogen loads.
Who knows, digital filters of the future may feature a probe to test the nutrient-microbe profile, software to monitors this, and a chemo-nutrient injection feature, all to the end of producing the ultimate biotope, down to the microbe profile of a native habitat. :)
 
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The study I posted on freshwater RAS actually found that the microbial community subject to composition fluctuations due to change in conditions is the non-nitrifying community but the actual nitrifier community composition remains fairly constant.

Our time series indicates RAS biofilter bacterial community composition change correlates with environmental parameter shifts related to fish growth (i.e., number of fish, water temperature, conductivity, oxidation-reduction potential, and feed size). This result is consistent with the hypothesis that biofilter bacterial community variation follows feed and fish growth driven shifts in the C/N ratio (Michaud et al., 2006, 2014). The community variability is seemingly confined to the non-nitrifying members of the biofilter, as the dominant nitrifying organisms changed little in composition or abundance over time.

Also, it is interesting to note that the non-nitrifying microbial community, apart from heterotrophs, also involves family of bacteria that are associated with known pathogen, naturally occurring.

Proteobacteria (on average, 40% of biofilter sand community sequences and 40% of water sequences) and Bacteroidetes (18% in sand, 33% in water) dominated both water and sand bacterial communities. At family-level taxonomic classification, the biofilter sand-associated community was distinct from the water community. The greatest proportion of sequences in the sand samples were classified to the bacterial groups, Chitinophagaceae (mean relative abundance, 12%), Acidobacteria family unknown (9%), Rhizobiales family unknown (6%), Nocardioidaceae (4%), Spartobacteria family unknown (4%), and Xanthomonadales family unknown (4%), while the water samples were dominated by sequences classified to Chitinophagaceae (14%), Cytophagaceae (8%), Neisseriaceae (8%), and Flavobacteriaceae (7%). At the genus-level Kribbella, Chthoniobacter, Niabella, and Chitinophaga were the most numerous classified taxa, each with on average >3% relative abundance in the biofilter samples.
 
So, what I glean from all that info is that there are many more types of bacteria, not only nitrobacter, which aid in the process of converting waste to nitrate.

Another thing to consider, correct me if i'm wrong here, is that if you had an aquarium which was extremely high in nitrate then the ph would possibly be very very low too. Would I be correct in saying that our nitrobacter can't live in a ph of less than 6, or thereabouts?

So that would indicate that if the water was nitrate rich then there must be some other bacteria, more resistant to high nitrate and high ph, taking the place of the nitrobacter if the nitrogen cycle is to continue. That fits hand in hand with the info you guys have posted.

It amazes me in this hobby that you can ask what seems like a simple question and then you need to be some kind of professor to understand the answer!
 
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Well, I tried to make it short. lol :redface:

Nitrates are a measure of pollution. They indicate that things have gone bad but they're not necessarily the cause but rather the effect.

Old tank syndrome is a scenario associated with overstocking, overfeeding, dirty clogged filters, dirty tank, low oxygen in both water and filter. I think it is incorrectly called "old tank" syndrome because it can happen in any tank, new or old.

From the perspective of the fish keeper, what one may notice is chronically sickly fish, random fish deaths, white bacterial blooms, the KH will be going down, the GH, TDS and nitrates will be rising, the pH will drop and may crash. But neither of these are the actual cause. They're just measures of the effect of the microbial shift in composition.

In simple terms, the system can't cope with the bioload anymore.

After a prolonged period of elevated nitrification levels and heavy oxygen decomposition due to the higher bio-load, the nitrate rises, the oxygen levels drops which in turn leads to the good BB suffering a blow and being overwhelmed by faculative anaerobic heterotrophic community of bacteria. This type of bacteria, unlike the good nitrifiers, can use all sorts of things for energy, both chemical(e.g. ammonia,nitrite, nitrate) and organic, and can multiply in both aerobic and anaerobic conditions, shifting their mechasims and energy sources based on the conditions. The good nitrifyers on another hand are chemo autotrophs that require oxygen to survive. Which means that if your filter gets clogged, the nitrifiers take a blow.

Heterotrophs, although having ability to assimilate ammonia in aerobic environment, are very poor at that, leading to deteriorating water conditions. When the oxygen levels drop too low, they start anaerobic decomposition and denitrification. They can use nitrate as a source and produce back hydrogen sulfide, methane, ammonia and nitrite, etc.....That's when one may start noticing some spikes.

In studies done on RAS systems on toxicity of nitrates to fish, any study that measured nitrites alongside nitrates, reports increase in nitrites when high nitrates are present.So it is important to note that these two parameters are very closely correlated and when nitrate is elevated, so are nitrites.

The studies speculate that the rise in nitrites in systems with high nitrates is due to increased nitrification levels(heterotrophs use nitrates for denitrification in low oxygen conditions). The studies also point out that the danger is magnified in low flow through systems(systems with low flow through the filters).

On a physiological levels in fish, nitrate and nitrite toxicity have the same symptoms, only that nitrites are way more toxic at massively lower levels. So what one sees and associates with nitrate toxicity in their fish tank can actually be a nitrite poisoning going unnoticed. As long as there is some nitrifiers and oxygen left to cope with the increased nitrites, they'll oxydize them back into nitrates but the cycle continues until one addresses the main problem.....

On a side note, nitrites are less toxic in harder water, ammonia is more toxic in harder water. Denitrification in marine tanks may be ok, due to the low toxicity of nitrites in salt water but in fresh water it can be disastrous. I still raise my brows when I hear fresh water denitrification..

Would I be correct in saying that our nitrobacter can't live in a ph of less than 6, or thereabouts?

Nitrification happens at all pH levels, it is just that different organisms are involved . A sudden shift in pH can indeed give the types established in ones tank a shock but this depends on the diversity of microbial community. Planted tanks for example are way more resilient because they support very diverse and complex microbial communities and can also cope with rise in nitrogenous waste when the filters have taken a hit for one or another reason.

In technical terms, a pH drop is due to the buffering capacity being exhausted(KH drop). KH is used up in nitrification and is ever dropping in a tank. The more the bio-load, the less the water changes, the softer the water, the faster it will drop, and so will the pH as a consequence of events.
 
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