Bio Filter Diffusion Question.

[nfored]

If bio filtration works through diffusion then I have an idea for a hidden automated emergency filtration setup.


I have two tanks a 220 gallon with two 2” overflows, and a 55 gallon with one 2” over flow. The tanks will flow down into a 40 gallon tank, the 40 gallon will have three 2” over flows at the top of the tank. These overflows from the 40 Gallon would each have an electronic shutoff valve that would close when the power is lost. This would cause the water flow to stop exactly where it was when the power failed, and hopefully creating a continuous link of water from both tanks to the 40 gallon.

If the above part worked then the battery backup air pumps would keep the sponge filters running, enough sponge filters for 400 gallons. Finally if bio filtration works through diffusion this continuous link to the sponge filters would give you an automated hidden emergence filter.

 

[nfored]

Bad idea?

 

[Dr Joe]

What do you mean by "if the bio-filtration works through diffusion"?

Are you wanting to have the emergency system move water with an air pump? (It is possible, it's called an air lift tube, but the tanks have to be at almost the same level).

Providing you do all the normal overflow safety things, the system will work (if the above height requirement met) or you use a small battery operated water pump (or UPS to power small AC pump).

Are you considering a sprinkler valve for this project? I ask because the have a tendency to leak under certain conditions (most actually use the water pressure to keep them shut)

& have you check pricing...

http://www.sprinklerwarehouse.com/Rain-Bird-PGA-Series-Valves-p/200-pga.htm

http://www.sprinkler.com/buy/item/rainbird_c_valves_2/9858

Orbit has a 1.5" @ ~$38.

Dr Joe

.

 

[nfored]

What do you mean by "if the bio-filtration works through diffusion"?

Are you wanting to have the emergency system move water with an air pump? (It is possible, it's called an air lift tube, but the tanks have to be at almost the same level).

Providing you do all the normal overflow safety things, the system will work (if the above height requirement met) or you use a small battery operated water pump (or UPS to power small AC pump).

Are you considering a sprinkler valve for this project? I ask because the have a tendency to leak under certain conditions (most actually use the water pressure to keep them shut)

& have you check pricing...

http://www.sprinklerwarehouse.com/Rain-Bird-PGA-Series-Valves-p/200-pga.htm

http://www.sprinkler.com/buy/item/rainbird_c_valves_2/9858

Orbit has a 1.5" @ ~$38.

Dr Joe

.

What I was thinking was this if there is a continuous link of water from the display tanks to the 40 gallon tank; that would mean that the water is connected to all 3 tanks. So in my mind if the fish in the 265 added .5 ammonia and the fish in the 55 add .25 ammonia, the total ammonia level would rise in all three tanks. The sponge filter in the 40 gallon tank would eat this ammonia and nitrite, which would make the water in the 40 gallon "clean". the water in the 55 and 265 would then use diffusion to make the ammonia and nitrite concentration equal in all three tanks. This would keep going like this until all tanks where 0 for ammonia and nitrite.

As long as the water level is at least 1/4 above the over flow in both tanks when the flow is stopped the water should form a link from the tank down through the pipes to the 40 gallon and then back up from the 40 gallon to the other tank.

If I am correct about all of the above the only thing that matters is that the 40 gallon is above the sump so I can gravity feed from the 40 gallon to the sump. The whole point of this is in the even of a power outage while I am at work the fish will have some type of filtration. I am building a small fish room, the tanks will be built into a wall with insulation on 3 of the 4 sides. The sump and 40 gallon will have insulation on all 4 sides, the back area behind the tanks where the sump and piping are will be closed in like a closet. The back of the fish room will be completely insulated, all pvc pipes will be wrapped in insulation and all tanks and sumps will have tops.

I didn't expect the valve to be so expensive, but it should just be a once every couple years expense. The key to this whole idea is the valves, the must be set to close when not supplied with electricity, if they don't close or close to slowly the water will drain to a level to low to allow a continuous link of water.

 

[brianp]

Mixing via diffusion is not effective over such distances. These connected tanks would essentially not equilibrate at a consistent ammonia level within a time span that is relevant to supporting aquatic life. Furthermore, in the absence of water circulation, the bacteria would not be oxygenated and would either die or their metabolic activities (such as oxidizing amonia) would slow to a crawl. This comment assumes that I understand your premise correctly.

 

[nfored]

Mixing via diffusion is not effective over such distances. These connected tanks would essentially not equilibrate at a consistent ammonia level within a time span that is relevant to supporting aquatic life. Furthermore, in the absence of water circulation, the bacteria would not be oxygenated and would either die or their metabolic activities (such as oxidizing amonia) would slow to a crawl. This comment assumes that I understand your premise correctly.

how would air driven sponge filters die from no o2?

The rest of what you said makes sense, and I am not sure how I could account for circulation. I thought about air stones inside of the pvc overflow but though that this would not move enough water, and would slow down the flow.

I am just trying to figure out some type of emergency filtration that can be automatic. when your talking about 80Watts to 500watts for a pump you can't get reasonable battery operation run time without spending thousands on a battery backup or generator.

 

[HarlanAshmore]

i think it would work

 

[nfored]

Mixing via diffusion is not effective over such distances. These connected tanks would essentially not equilibrate at a consistent ammonia level within a time span that is relevant to supporting aquatic life. Furthermore, in the absence of water circulation, the bacteria would not be oxygenated and would either die or their metabolic activities (such as oxidizing amonia) would slow to a crawl. This comment assumes that I understand your premise correctly.

how would air driven sponge filters die from no o2?

The rest of what you said makes sense, and I am not sure how I could account for circulation. I thought about air stones inside of the pvc overflow but though that this would not move enough water, and would slow down the flow.

I am just trying to figure out some type of emergency filtration that can be automatic. when your talking about 80Watts to 500watts for a pump you can't get reasonable battery operation run time without spending thousands on a battery backup or generator.

Just now I had a great idea.

let me paint it up and see if this sounds better.

 

[nfored]

So tell me what you think


Going to go with a sealed setup kind like those crazy vertical tanks, or the aquarium penthouse. Then replace the air driven filters with a ultra low watt power head and a bag of seachem matrix.

 

[brianp]

I understand that you wil be using a battery-powered air pump to circulate water through the media bed and that's a start, because the laws of Thermodynamics can not be denied. You have substantial volumes of water and my intuitive sense is that this water is going to require movement. That means that you are going to have to put a lot more energy into this system than a battery operated pump to keep things viable. Unfortunately, that's about all I can contribute.