Breeding aggression

[dazzapolypterusweeksii]

Ok so im going from feeling like im on top of the world with keeping fish to being really annoyed today. All has been great with my rays, i got a female p13 two and a half years ago then my female flower about 16months ago then a female pearl (sectioned off to grow) in march.all from wharf.i wanted to expand my collection and had a list of ones i was interested in,im mainly into large growing rays aswell as the stunning patterned types.a large male otorongo came up and although i preferred females to males because of sizes attained it werent very otfen i was going to have chance to get one so jumped at the chance and collected him.....in hindsight i should have done more research on seeing if he would fit in ok bearing in mind he has a disc size of about 24 inches compared to my 2 females at 18ish inches and 16ish inches.once in a couple of days later the large male ray was swimming round with the p13's barb sticking out of his head! Which i caught and removed i monitored closely to the situation and the male was trying to breed (im guessing) with both female rays to which there was no damage or constant harassing just occasionally mouth mark on front discs.today i fed my flower ray in morning and all was ok but did notice few marks and nicks out of both female rays.....i checked this evening to find the p13 badly chewed on and the flower also covered in same marks but not as bad both still feeding.ive now caught the male and seperated him in a floating container until i can sort a proper devide out but how far will the aggression go? Does it subside? Is it breeding aggression or another type of aggression? Will they always have to be seperated?

 

[Thekid]

vamptrev aquaman45 jim barry

 

[CANAMONSTER]

I know biting of the disc is breeding bites , wonder about that bitting on the head is?
My Buddies female has same bites but not as bad since male is much smaller

 

[SHARK13]

I think some of the other guys with alot more experience than me will chime and give you a more definitive answer, but from what I have personally seen as males get older some become alot more aggressive about breeding. Some will try to breed anything that moves all the time. They don't care about the females health or state of being. Sometimes males will get so bad about it they will try to pounce or push on prego females backs to make her stressed and abort pups so they can breed her again...

Most breeders who are serious about keeping rays will seperate males off at all times unless they are put in to breed girls. Long term mixed groups of males-females does not always work out. Obviously you don't want to put too much stress on your girls, but you still want the males to get the job done. My guess is you have to be able to find that fine line on when enough is enough. However if he is that aggressive already just after a couple days... I would leave him seperated all the time until I wanted him to breed a girl.

 

[jim barry]

This is perfectly normal breeding behaviour and it gets worse than what you have experienced so far.
Biting around the disk, backside and eyes is all normal and can look real nasty. It will only stop once the female has been bred. So it depends how much you want the breeding to be a success? Unfortunately its a necessary evil if you want pups. But it is also a fine line between success and the female becoming overly stressed. My thread this week is all about a female that has become overly stressed however I have seen her look far far worse with huge chunks of her missing before becoming pregnant. This time around her physical well being was not too bad but her mental state almost killed her. She has killed a male before through seeing off unwanted advances in breeding so I have to be very careful when trying to breed her.
Bottom line, rays play very hard when breeding, especially black rays. But once they have been bred once the same male female combo will be a better success the next time around with less aggression and physical damage from my experience.
Hope this helps.

 

[dazzapolypterusweeksii]

Thank you does help alot its just bit of a shock to see how quickly his aggression has roughed them up especially the p13 im not interested in breeding which is why i preferred females only but i knew it would obviously happen or try to happen when i introduced him i just thort it would be less aggressive and not constant.when ive watched him biting them because of his size when his biting them his claspers are miles away from the females parts so will he even be able to do the deed? Not quite sure wat to dont want to stress my flower or p13 to the point i loose them

 

[jim barry]

Thank you does help alot its just bit of a shock to see how quickly his aggression has roughed them up especially the p13 im not interested in breeding which is why i preferred females only but i knew it would obviously happen or try to happen when i introduced him i just thort it would be less aggressive and not constant.when ive watched him biting them because of his size when his biting them his claspers are miles away from the females parts so will he even be able to do the deed? Not quite sure wat to dont want to stress my flower or p13 to the point i loose them

Its always a tough call mate that only you can decide. The male will have no problem breeding if he is bigger or smaller than the female so long as he is mature. He will grab hold and flip himself upside down to get the deed done. If he is relentless then the female will need a break. You must have seen videos of this? If not, look it up on youtube, plenty of information about and vids to watch of rays breeding.

 

[dazzapolypterusweeksii]

Its always a tough call mate that only you can decide. The male will have no problem breeding if he is bigger or smaller than the female so long as he is mature. He will grab hold and flip himself upside down to get the deed done. If he is relentless then the female will need a break. You must have seen videos of this? If not, look it up on youtube, plenty of information about and vids to watch of rays breeding.

Thanks jim i have seen vids of rays breeding just didnt know it was as brutal as it is when its happening right in front of you.the p13 marks are now red and bloody so im going to leave him seperated for a few days at least to see her inprove.last question will he definitely leave her alone once he has done it or can they still carry on and what if the females especially like the flower arnt mature enough to breed will that make any difference?

 

[MHDevelopments]

He won't care if the flower is mature enough or not mate, he'll just keep on trying and trying and trying. A friend of mine who's on here, Alan Doy, ended up separating a pair of pearls he had several times because his male had matured and was relentless with his advances to the female. The female was still quite young and ended up taking a really bad beating.

I know it's not simple,but I'd shift the male permanently or you may well risk losing the flower due to stress, let alone the P13.

The bites etc look really bad but will heal quickly with clean water and a bit of time.

 

[mscamp02]

It depends on the male I guess.

My proven male mantilla breeder is not crazy aggressive and has only gone after larger mature females even though he was in with 10" juvenile females. However, he ended up killing one of my females after she gave birth because he wouldnt stop trying to tag her again and I didn't separate soon enough causing her to over stress and die with no physical markings on her.

My male jag on the other hand is obnoxious, he beats and hammers away at any female and does so as aggressively as your castexi. Hes left my female jag alone a little bit but still chases her so I'm on the fence to separate or not as I don't know if shes pregnant yet.