breeding Gymnos outdoors

[jjohnwm]

I have three Gymnogeophagus rhabdotus which I purchased last fall, and which have spent the winter indoors in a 360-gallon tank along with some G.balzanii, Cichlasoma dimerus and a few smaller species of assorted livebearers, catfish, etc. I was only able to set up one outdoor stock tank this summer and chose to try the rhabdotus in it, hoping to induce spawning. The tank is round, roughly 6-ft diameter and perhaps 20-22 inches deep. It has a dozen pipe sections on the bottom for cover, a nice layer of duckweed, and some hornwort. Filtration is a single massive Poret foam filter, 6 inches square by about a foot tall, powered by air. There is a thin layer of sand substrate to cater to their sifting activities.

Water temperatures should be stable in the 75-80F range at this time of year for at least a couple of months; instead, we have had several cycles of hot, cold, hot, cold and the water temperature has followed suit. The water was 60F last Tuesday, back up to 77F this morning.

Has this unseasonal fluctuation ruined my chances of getting a spawn? The fish were kept in the basement at 60-65F for several months, and I expected a prolonged warm spell to induce spawning behaviour, but this? The fish are 3.5-4 inches in length, and frankly I'm not even sure of their gender; I'm not a cichlid guy and not sure what to expect. I had considered taking them back inside, where temps would be stable at above 70F consistently, but perhaps they have a spawn already hatched, or worse yet a batch of as-yet-unhatched eggs, and pulling the pipes and plants out might spook them into destroying or eating the spawn...or not? I'm really unsure as to my best course of action. I'm currently leaning towards just leaving them alone until fall and then hoping for the best, but if there is something I can do to improve my odds I am all ears to hear what it is.

The balzanii and dimerus cichlids indoors are all too young (I think) to be spawning. They are all in the 2.5 to 4-inch range and I wasn't expecting or planning to try spawning them this year, but the balzanii in particular are behaving very adult-like and the dominant male has a very noticeable nuchal hump or bulge coming on. Perhaps I selected the wrong species to try outdoors?

Any opinions or suggestions from duanes or any other keeper experienced with these southern cichlid species would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[dogofwar]

Not at all - daily temperature fluctuation and spring up's and down's are what happens in Uruguay. It's also the longer days that trigger them.

2.5-4" Dimerus are plenty large to spawn. They really kick it into gear when temps are in the 80s, though.

 

[duanes]

Not at all - daily temperature fluctuation and spring up's and down's are what happens in Uruguay. It's also the longer days that trigger them.

2.5-4" Dimerus are plenty large to spawn. They really kick it into gear when temps are in the 80s, though.

I agree, the inside temps of 60-65 should have been a substantial cool down, and the new outside temps should spur spawning.

 

[jjohnwm]

Thanks, gents. I should have considered length of daylight period; currently have 16 hours of daylight, so should be sufficient. I was a bit fixated on the temperature fluctuations.

I wish I had more rhabdotus, but three was all I could get. We don't see them often here and I was lucky to snag those. Hopefully there is a pair amongst them. I haven't actually seen them since putting them outdoors, so was getting a bit anxious. I will post up with developments as and if they occur. Cheers!

 

[C. Breeze]

It’s covered with plants- like you can’t see down there? I bet there’s fry already. My terapurpura have 3 ages of fry in there vat right now.

For reference 32 degrees north on the Atlantic coast of the United States.- pretty much the inverse ( northern Hemisphere) of where they come from. My gymnos start spawning 1st week of may. Water temp is probably most “kinetic” at that point but the days are getting long really fast right then also. I would say the cichlasoma start spawning in the 1st or second week of June. Just prior to the solstice and the water Almosst never drops below 76


I know when duanes had his he was up in the Great Lakes substantially further north but also a coastal climate.

And dogowar is mid Atlanticcoast so between the activities of our fish you get a decent sample of timing. And I also defer to their experience.

 

[jjohnwm]

My latitude here at home is just over 50 degrees North, and we have no moderating influences from the Great Lakes or marine coastlines. They don't call it Winterpeg for nothing...and I'm an hour north of that.

I chose these species hoping to be able to breed them outside during our laughably short summer; I am actually forced to use heaters in their tanks in both fall and spring to keep their "rest" period from stretching out into a half year hibernation. Livebearers kept outside typically produce only two broods (one in the case of Goodeids) before they come inside at season's end. I think I am pushing the envelope a bit trying to keep sub-tropical fish outside up here, but I have good success with some so I am keeping my fingers crossed for the Gymnos.

Last year they were outside for less than two months; showed terrific growth (from perhaps 2 inches to nearly 4!) and looked fantastic when I pulled them out. Then, as now, the container was thick with duckweed and aside from an occasional flash of motion when I part the duckweed to drop in sinking pellets, I never saw them. Then, as now...the suspense is killing me.

 

[marpol]

My smallest gymnogeophagus mekinos female was ready to spawn just two months ago and she wasnt bigger than 7 cm. I released to pond all my 8x gymnogeophagus mekinos , 2x gymno labiatus and 10x gymno rhabdotus batovi in april and they are gettin bigger and bigger. End of april was cold and water temperature dropped from 15 celsius to 5 celsius (42F) for two or three days . These days water temperature 30 celsius in pond isnt something special.

 

[jjohnwm]

So, there's good news and there's bad news...

Upon returning home from a 3-week work stint, I find the outdoor stock tank as mysterious as ever. So much duckweed that several large netfuls removed still didn't leave any clear spots. So much hornwort and Myriophyllum that it needs to be parted in order to allow food to sink. And no activity visible; the bottom of the tank is littered with broken sections of concrete drainage tile to provide cover and the rhabdotus use it to advantage. The tank is in a quiet spot in the yard, so they are not accustomed to observers looming overhead. My wife feeds them daily for me, and that few seconds is all they get in terms of observation. They are skittish when being looked down upon. I have no idea if there are fry in there; in truth, I have no idea if I even have a male-female pair among the three adults. I am still wishing I could have grabbed more than just 3, but they were the only ones unspoken-for when I purchased them. So I wait and hope...

Indoors, things are different. The 360gallon tank contains 4x Cichlasoma dimerus, 6x Gymnogeophagus balzani, and an assortment of Amecas, Xenotocas, catfish, Garras, etc. The day before I flew out I realized that at least two female balzanis, at about 2.5 inches, were holding eggs. Didn't know they had laid, never saw the eggs until they showed up in the females' mouths. Upon my return, no fry are visible, but of course there are a lot of other mouths in there so I suppose that isn't surprising. At least one different slightly larger female is now holding eggs, no idea for how long. And three of the dimerus are quite coloured up, so I am wondering if I have 3M/1F of that species; no overt breeding or courtship activity is taking place among them.

So...the one species (rhabdotus) that I am actively trying to breed...may or may not be doing so, and I likely won't know for another 2 months for sure. The balzanis, which I had considered putting outdoors instead of the rhabdotus, are definitely trying to breed in their community setting with little success. And the dimerus...are apparently just eating and growing.

I am happy to find that the balzanis and dimerus coexist with no aggression at all, towards each other or towards the smaller species. The Amecas and Xenotocas have dropped lots of young, as have the Green Swordtails in another tank (really liking those Green Swords...). The two Goodeids are very interesting in the 360. The males do a lot of displaying for females and for each other, and sparring duels between one male of each species are common and entertaining. No actual harm is done to anyone in this tank, which is quite different than the bloody combats that sometimes occur in smaller tanks with Amecas in particular.

Just picked up another stock tank, and have a line on yet another, so hopefully next summer I will have three of them outdoors for further breeding attempts. One for each of the cichlid species, probably. But, that's next year...summer is too close to finished for me to start a new tank now.

Thanks to anyone who has actually read this far and commented...you have my sympathy and apologies for my rambling.

 

[duanes]

I have had 2 species of Gymnogeophagus from the gymnogenys group (Quilero, and Paso Pache) spawn outside when in Wisconsin (not as brutal as Winnipeg) but cold nonetheless.


Paso Pache above, 2nd shot outside with fry.
Quilero (AKA Rio Yerbailto)below


Cichlasoma dimerus, and Australoheros were also successful spawners outside.

Above dimerous scooped from the pond (I never fed, they just ate what was naturally there.
Parent below

Below Australoheros "red Ceibal"

Above outside in fry rearing colors
below female in normal color

male below

In Wisconsin, even a 4 ft pond would freeze solid to the bottom, so all the above would be housed in a kiddy pool in an unheated basement for the winter

although I kept balzani in unheated room temp tanks in th house, the ones I tried outside, did not fair as well .
As you can see in the last shot there is a Uruguayan pike cichlid (lower right), they did fairly well outside, but never spawned.

 

[jjohnwm]

I like those Red Ceibals, but have never seen them offered for sale locally. Always watching, though. The balzani barely nudged out the rhabdotus when I chose which species to put outside this year; maybe that will be a lucky choice.

I actually just pulled into the driveway with two more circular stock tanks, one 4-foot and one 6-foot. My wife thinks I am going overboard with the outdoor fish idea.

Well, duh...