Broken bar and curved bar Festae fry

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Crazylegs78

Crazylegs78

Plecostomus
MFK Member
Oct 26, 2020
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So I've got a few fry from the first spawns of my "Wild" Festae. I am at the stage where I need to start culling for physical deformities and undesirable traits. I had more fry than I thought turn out with puffer-like tails, and broken or curved bars, I would estimate around 20%. The parents were purchased from wet spot tropical fish in Portland as WC, I still have the receipt for proof. The parents are great specimens to my relatively untrained eye. I do, and have consistently done, 50% water changes weekly at a minimum.


Here are the parents purchased as "Wild"
20211205_184948.jpg

Here is the only surviving fry from the first spawn, for which I was unprepared. This fish is one mean SOB! At 2", it dominates 6" silver dollars and a 5" carpintis. Are the broken/curved bars a trait that would make this an undesirable breeder? I recall seeing F1 Festae females from COFA stock missing some bars somewhere on the interwebs.
20220310_170928.jpg

And here are some fry from the second spawn. You can see both the puffer tail(bottom right) and crazy bars(bottom, left of center).
20220310_213705.jpg


As I mentioned, it's time to start culling. I was wondering if these are natural deviations or signs of inferior genetics? After two spawns with similar issues, I am leaning toward genetic or environmental causes. And should I cull mis-bars? Should I even try to keep/breed any of the fry from these two, or just start over with a new breeding pair from somewhere more reputable?

Thank you for any insight and thoughts!
 
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Your pair are gorgeous. This has been my experience with wild caught cichlids and may not sum up your fish. I have had the issue of fry not showing typical traits of the parents. The fish I had were cichlasoma amazonarum. What I spotted was fry that had markings not typical of other siblings, also some that had bent spine and a few roundbodies. These I culled as I personally didn't find attractive and found they were weaker than their siblings. I would say that is normal to have some differences and out of the normal fry. In the wild most likely these fish succumb. Now if it is just the markings that differ then I'd say could just be something normal in this fish. I am no expert on festae but I think the fry look normal other than nipped fins.

From my experience environmental deformities are usually poorly developed gills and dorsal fins. I had batch of vieja synspilum that one batch I wasn't around for the first two weeks, family were feeding etc. This batch had alot of deformities as when I tested the water, quality was bad. The other batches were just fine with minimal culls roundbodies etc
 
Thanks coltiger, very useful info! So the tails could be due to developmental environment, got it.
 
Bars are not a cullable offense. These are just normal color variations, in any spawn that may or may not allow an individual the ability to survive in a certain habitat (or not), although may determine what a casual observer may find acceptable..
Bent spines, balloon and short bodied, folded gill plates , and true deformities are reasons to cull.
Some of these may take time to become obvious.
all the festae below are individuals I have kept, and I considered none if them cullable.
 
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Remember that in the wild like 1% or fewer of a spawn lives to adulthood and reproduces so only the fittest survive. The traits that we find desirable as people who keep fish in a glass box - e.g. straight bars and bright color - may or may not be the traits that allow wild fish to survive.

That said, deformities can and are often a case of something strange - poor water quality, use of chemicals or different-than-natural water parameters - when raising fry. Or genetic. Hard to know. I've collected deformed fish in the wild. And fish with weird bars.
 
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duanes said:
BTW, I would cull anything with a misshapen mouth.
So anything that ,looks like a blood parrot would be one of the first to get the axe.
Click to expand...

Agreed! I've owned some festae before with downturned mouths and/or curved spines, but i don't ever recall seeing such unusual baring. Thanks for the vote of confidence! I have to say, that first fry has so much personality that i'm for sure keeping it as a wet pet.
 
dogofwar said:
Remember that in the wild like 1% or fewer of a spawn lives to adulthood and reproduces so only the fittest survive. The traits that we find desirable as people who keep fish in a glass box - e.g. straight bars and bright color - may or may not be the traits that allow wild fish to survive.

That said, deformities can and are often a case of something strange - poor water quality, use of chemicals or different-than-natural water parameters - when raising fry. Or genetic. Hard to know. I've collected deformed fish in the wild. And fish with weird bars.
Click to expand...

Gotcha, thanks! I guess this is just one of those lessons you learn when you first start breeding....
 
coltiger1975 said:
Your pair are gorgeous. This has been my experience with wild caught cichlids and may not sum up your fish. I have had the issue of fry not showing typical traits of the parents. The fish I had were cichlasoma amazonarum. What I spotted was fry that had markings not typical of other siblings, also some that had bent spine and a few roundbodies. These I culled as I personally didn't find attractive and found they were weaker than their siblings. I would say that is normal to have some differences and out of the normal fry. In the wild most likely these fish succumb. Now if it is just the markings that differ then I'd say could just be something normal in this fish. I am no expert on festae but I think the fry look normal other than nipped fins.

From my experience environmental deformities are usually poorly developed gills and dorsal fins. I had a batch of vieja synspilum that one batch I wasn't around for the first two weeks, family were feeding etc. This batch had alot of deformities as when I tested the water, quality was bad. The other batches were just fine with minimal culls roundbodies etc
Click to expand...
This is such an interesting experience. The strongest of genes will not mean much if nutritional needs are not met. Poor water quality could manifest into gills that have to struggle to preform. I might have people that get mad at me for this statement but the same laws can be applied to humans.
I am old school and still feed offspring via crushed pellet and blended blue claw crab meat via a turkey baster. I do this because I’m at work all day and my wife will not always remember to feed them. I grow algae in my tanks to offset feedings. My survival rates are really high. I do end up with runts that make it to half inch and then get eaten by their siblings. But Ihave not experienced any Gill or fin malformation that I look for. Great info everyone, keep sharing.
 
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