Can YOU Determine the Sex of Your BGK? The Answer

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dmed

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Feb 8, 2008
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This question is a perpetual thread, recycled over and over again on this forum.

THE URBAN LEGEND: Various versions of this - You can tell by the shape of its head or jaw. You can tell by how thick or how long the body is. You can tell by some aspect of the white stripe. You can tell by the dorsal fin. You can tell by the tail. When asked, people point to a forum post from another site where someone with no scientific credentials describes a questionable set up from an unknown and unpublished source. Also involved in the legend is that BGK are bred in captivity, and you can do it too if you get your hands on a male and a female.

THE FACTS: None of these assertions are true. BGK have no obvious external sexual dimorphic characteristics that a casual fishkeeper can observe in home aquaria. I have read many scientific publications about BGK and all come to the same conclusion. To be absolutely certain, I have corresponded with a university professor who has a PhD and studies knife fish EXCLUSIVELY. He has a lab full of tanks that are full of knife fish. I have personally read 6 articles that he published regarding studies on Apteronotus species, and many of those studies were directly related to sexual characteristics, specifically differences in electrical discharge between males and females of the species.

This is what he said - I am paraphrasing - some species, like BROWN ghost knife fish, are very sexually dimorphic and the sexes are easy to tell apart by external characteristics such as body size, snout shape, and the shape of the urogenital papilla. This is NOT the case with BLACK ghost knife fish. Even the shape of the urogential papilla is not enough to confirm whether the fish is male or female, because it varies among populations. When the researchers in this lab determine the sex of a BGK, they do a laparotomy (surgery), because that is the reliable way to say for certain if the fish is male or female. The other way, which is a bit less reliable, is to measure plasma levels of 11-ketotestosterone and estradiol.

Furthermore, again according to the professor, BROWN ghost knife fish have been successfully bred in captivity by a few individuals, but there is no published account of ANY successful BGK breeding. They have many sexually mature BGK together in the lab tanks and there has never been any spawning.

I do not want to publicly post the name of this contact or the exact copy of the correspondence, as I did not ask for permission, but I would be happy to provide it to a moderator for verification. I have been researching this exact topic for quite some time now, and I have gone to great lengths to be sure all the information was correct before sharing it.

I don't think it is helpful to the forum members for blatant disinformation to be spread about and taken as truth, as is the case of the multiple threads about "How to Sex (Breed) Your BGK." Someone has gone as far as to "lift" other people's pictures off other websites and label them as 'male' or 'female', which is not only untruthful but a copyright violation as well.

I am not blaming the people who received this bad information and believed it. I even let them try to determine the sex of my BGK. (As I recall, it was about 50% male and 50% female, but better pictures were needed.) I just think it's important for everyone to know that you can NOT determine the sex of a BGK by these methods, as I read that people are attempting to do so in the hopes of breeding them in their home aquaria, which would of course be a waste of time, money, and effort, and could end up with the owner arranging a "marriage" that will end in disaster for one or both fish.

Any internet claims of BGK breeding in captivity should be looked upon with the very highest degree of suspicion. Even the most well-known claim of breeding in Australia is totally unverified and at this point must be treated as a rumor at best. As the primary fish species that I keep are native to Australia and New Guinea, I know that Australia has extraordinarily strict laws regarding the export of fish, so I doubt very seriously that an Australian breeder of BGK would hide his or her methods in the hopes of making a profit.

At my house, because I have kids and therefore everything must have a gender and a name, we "determined" the sex of our BGK today with an old-fashioned coin flip. It's a boy! I hope that hearing these facts will allow us to get back to enjoying our BGK without chasing around these silly "fish tales" about sexing and breeding them.

Thanks for reading,
Deana
 
For someone who wants only the 'truth' and the 'facts' to be posted you did not try very hard to verify the picture I posted of the male and female BGK. The picture was not 'lifted' from some site. It was sent to me by the person in Australia who has been successful in breeding them.

I did my research and I am going to try to breed them. People like you just make me all the more determined.

Just a thought.... everything seemed impossible.... until it was done for first time!

Thanks for vote of confidence..... I will be sure to give you any helpful advice I can in the future.... After all - isn't this what forums are all about????
 
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I think we based our ideas that black ghost knife has the same sexual diformity as the brown ghost knife. Good info bro, I salute ya! :naughty:
 
cmartin;1838433; said:
For someone who wants only the 'truth' and the 'facts' to be posted you did not try very hard to verify the picture I posted of the male and female BGK. The picture was not 'lifted' from some site. It was sent to me by the person in Australia who has been successful in breeding them.

I did my research and I am going to try to breed them. People like you just make me all the more determined.

Just a thought.... everything seemed impossible.... until it was done for first time!

Thanks for vote of confidence..... I will be sure to give you any helpful advice I can in the future.... After all - isn't this what forums are all about????


To be fair, I wasn't actually referring to your picture.

Since you posted that picture and did NOT say anything different, I assumed that it was a picture of your own two BGK which you had been observing personally to make your observations. I suppose that was my mistake?

I didn't want to specifically call out an individual, but since you asked, I was referring to this post:


I've read that the difference is the face shape. I've collected pictures from the internet that seem to conferm that there is a difference. (note that some of these pictures are copywrited and are only for personal use)
http://s217.photobucket.com/albums/c...Ghost%20Knife/
Female: face is short and has a flat nose/mouth area. body is bigger (height wise) and rounder, more noticable in older/larger fish.
Male: face is angular, has a slope from the back down to the mouth, also has an underbite. body stays thin (height wise) even when bigger.

Now it is possible that these two differances are different strains of BGK's, but I don't think so.


Now, how do you think that this person knows that Johnny Jensen took a photo (and copyrighted it, but the way) of a "Female" and that the picture from Badman's is a "Male" and the picture from That Fish Place (which she's gone to the trouble of flipping) is a "Male"?

The post above comes from this thread http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139894&page=2

I'm not sure what you mean by saying "people like me," but I can provide published references from peer-reviewed scientific journals and texts for the statements that I made. Please provide the reference for your claim that you have posted a picture of two BGK that were bred in captivity. The world is waiting, because there is no other published and verified report.

What people choose to believe about their own fish is one matter. To go to a forum and tell people something is factual when it is unproven is another. I just wanted people to have a chance to see what biologists and ichthyologists have to say about the "Hot Topic" of sexing and breeding BGK.
 
dark_knights_99;1838699; said:
I think we based our ideas that black ghost knife has the same sexual diformity as the brown ghost knife. Good info bro, I salute ya! :naughty:


Thanks. It's a bit disappointing, I admit that it would have been more fun if the same "rules" applied so we could keep posting pictures and guessing. However, I think it's important to get the facts right. I read a lot of texts and research articles, but I had to contact an expert as well, because I wanted to be absolutely certain before I said anything either way.

I can see how the confusion might have started. Apparently brown ghost knife fish are fairly reliable to sex by the shape of the head and jaw. The professor told me that variations in snout shape happen across populations of BGK. So, in one part of the river the head might be long on males and females, and in another part of the river the heads are short. He said that one of his students is doing some research about the differences between these populations right now.

The professor also told me this about sexing other species:

1. The frequency of their electrical signals can be easily recorded. In some species, the males and females reliably give off different frequencies - but not black ghost knife fish.

2. In some species, the males (only) develop special teeth that are used in combat - also not black ghost knife fish.

Also, I ONLY asked about BGK, so I can't say anything at all about the other knife fish species (like the thread about sexing CK), because each species has different characteristics and the same "rules" don't apply to all of them.

Deana
 
way to go Bro!! A mystery truly!! maybe in order for them to breed, they require the right temp? or water ph levels? etc? full moon? hehe
 
Well, no one (with the possible exception of one person here ;)) knows what will induce black ghost knife fish to spawn.

I do know precisely what induces spawning in brown knife fish (A. leptorhynchus) and green knife fish (E. virescens), though. These two species have been successfully bred in captivity. The full account is published in ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR.
 
very interesting...hope this continues ... great information....even if there is no facts that are concrete yet... interesting to ponder and question..
 
Hmmm...since they look so similar, it doesn't matter to me if mine is a male or female. Interesting read though.
 
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