Can you tell if Jack Dempsey fry are carrying the Electric Blue gene by size?

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H

Haecklers

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Nov 10, 2010
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USA
I know it wouldn't be 100%, but I have a spawn by BGJD X BGJD and I should have 1/4 EBJD, 1/4 plain JD and 1/2 BGJD's. The EBJD's are smaller and a reflective yellow (bumblebee stage). Then there are about 1/4 that are really large and robust and another about 1/2 that are kind of an in-between size. So it seems likely to me that the 1/4 of them that are largest might be the ones that don't carry the gene, (which when expressed makes them smaller and grow more slowly) and the 1/2 that are about medium-sized are probably more likely to carry the gene. Then there are runts of the regular coloration and I'd guess they are more likely to just have some defect, but also highly likely to be carrying the gene, because it does result in more defects.

About 15 are confusing me because they have the striping pattern of the non-EB but have that reflective yellow glow and are the same size as the EBJD's. If I had to put money on it, I'd guess if they aren't EBJD's they at least carry the gene, but could they turn out to also be electric blue, just not the fully blue color? I've seen some that were called "electric blue" but weren't really a very intense blue, more yellow or pale.

Sorry for the poor quality of the EBJD photo, there was a reflection problem.

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There is no physical difference between regular and blue genes Dempsey, so no way to tell which is which; the blue genes ones carry a recessive blue gene that is not phenotypically expressed.
 
I'm telling you, you guys that deal with breeding EBJD and BGJD should put together a thread about it with pictures and personal experiences. Even if some of you disagree on some things on the subject, it will still give people a single place to voice their concerns and questions. There are a lot of threads and posts about how to identify and breed these fish. I think a sticky would at least help to lump these thoughts and questions together. I have no experience on the subject so I can't confidently start a thread on something that I know nothing about. It's just a thought but I think it's worth a try.
 
I just never understood the fascination about a fish with so many genetic defects. I remember several years ago they even had deformed and sunk in eyes. I don't care to be associated with them or parrots another fish so deformed he can not close his mouth. People really need to understand the results of there actions. Tonight I went to go see the new ape movie and one of the things that came out is that some things should not be our decisions to try.
 
Smitty,

You may be right. Overall, I'm against creating animals bred to suffer. I even hate the halfmoon betta fish, which struggle to swim and then sink in exhaustion. But once an animal is found with an appealing defect, it's hard to get rid of those genes again because people WILL breed them as long as there's a market.

But the electric blue isn't so much a deformity as a naturally-occurring color morph, that has a higher rate of defects associated with it, but there can be healthy specimens as well. I think part of the problem is that when people breed them they are worth so much that maybe ones that should be culled aren't, and are sold, and the breeder isn't telling the buyers "this is one of the runts". If only the healthiest of the EBJD's were allowed to breed, instead of any EBJD someone can get their hands on, then maybe the color could be bred for in a way that made the beautiful colors but also healthy fish.

In my spawn there are some tiny EBJD fry and some that are robust and have always swum with the pack and held their own against the regular-colored ones. I'm not going to kill the tiny fry unless they show defects, they may have just gotten off to a bad start in the crowd and being left slightly weaker makes them less competitive so they continue to fall behind. But when I'm ready to sell them you can be sure I'll tell people which are the ones I'd recommend breeding (largest, most active, altert, etc.) and which should only be pets.

If more was known about the spawns, it would help breeders focus their efforts on breeding them more responsibly. For instance, would you get healthier fry from a BGJD X BGJD crossing than from an EBJD X BGJD crossing? What if only the very healthiest from the spawns were allowed to breed? Maybe there's some key nutrients the EBJD's are more sensitive to that accounts for the high rate of birth defects (methylation of the genes) so that excellent nutrition would create healthy spawns of them.

Research has shown that certain metals in the water make new fry less able to find food - it has to be closer to their faces before they'll eat it. We know that available nutrients also affect the development of embryos in the eggs and after hatching. Also, trace amounts of chemicals in the water, even as little as parts per trillion of some things, can affect development. We know that some species of fish are more sensitive to environmental and nutritional factors than others. So it makes sense to me that some genetic strains could also be more sensitive than others - for instance people whose kids have autism say their children are more sensitive to food additives and mercury.

So there could also be a way to breed EBJD's maybe with RO water or betonite clay substrate to absorb chemicals that could reduce the fragility of that color morph. At $50 each at 3", it might even be worth finding out. And if it turned out there was a strain of fish like EBJD that reacted reliably to environmental or nutritional stressors, it would be fantastic for science as a way of testing water quality or nutritional qualities of foods.
 
Haecklers said:
Smitty,

You may be right. Overall, I'm against creating animals bred to suffer. I even hate the halfmoon betta fish, which struggle to swim and then sink in exhaustion. But once an animal is found with an appealing defect, it's hard to get rid of those genes again because people WILL breed them as long as there's a market.

But the electric blue isn't so much a deformity as a naturally-occurring color morph, that has a higher rate of defects associated with it, but there can be healthy specimens as well. I think part of the problem is that when people breed them they are worth so much that maybe ones that should be culled aren't, and are sold, and the breeder isn't telling the buyers "this is one of the runts". If only the healthiest of the EBJD's were allowed to breed, instead of any EBJD someone can get their hands on, then maybe the color could be bred for in a way that made the beautiful colors but also healthy fish.

In my spawn there are some tiny EBJD fry and some that are robust and have always swum with the pack and held their own against the regular-colored ones. I'm not going to kill the tiny fry unless they show defects, they may have just gotten off to a bad start in the crowd and being left slightly weaker makes them less competitive so they continue to fall behind. But when I'm ready to sell them you can be sure I'll tell people which are the ones I'd recommend breeding (largest, most active, altert, etc.) and which should only be pets.

If more was known about the spawns, it would help breeders focus their efforts on breeding them more responsibly. For instance, would you get healthier fry from a BGJD X BGJD crossing than from an EBJD X BGJD crossing? What if only the very healthiest from the spawns were allowed to breed? Maybe there's some key nutrients the EBJD's are more sensitive to that accounts for the high rate of birth defects (methylation of the genes) so that excellent nutrition would create healthy spawns of them.

Research has shown that certain metals in the water make new fry less able to find food - it has to be closer to their faces before they'll eat it. We know that available nutrients also affect the development of embryos in the eggs and after hatching. Also, trace amounts of chemicals in the water, even as little as parts per trillion of some things, can affect development. We know that some species of fish are more sensitive to environmental and nutritional factors than others. So it makes sense to me that some genetic strains could also be more sensitive than others - for instance people whose kids have autism say their children are more sensitive to food additives and mercury.

So there could also be a way to breed EBJD's maybe with RO water or betonite clay substrate to absorb chemicals that could reduce the fragility of that color morph. At $50 each at 3", it might even be worth finding out. And if it turned out there was a strain of fish like EBJD that reacted reliably to environmental or nutritional stressors, it would be fantastic for science as a way of testing water quality or nutritional qualities of foods.
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Rick has the best line ebjd hands down. Took him years to perfect his line.


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