Chemical resistant ick or vulnerable fish?

[viejafish]

I recently bought a few new fish and quarantined them for 2 weeks. After observing no ick symptom, I moved the new fish to my grow out tank. Within 3 days, ick broke out in my EBA (not the new fish), so I immediately administered Kordan Rid-Ich Plus to the whole tank. Kordan RIP is a malachite green and formalin combo which I have successfully treated ick in the past. I reapplied full dosage daily for the next 6 days, but the ick on the EBA did not go away but get worst. Finally the EBA died along with most other fish apparently from overdosage. Interestingly, none other fish showed ick including the fish overdosed to death. I blame on myself for not doing WC before daily dosage in the assumption that the chemicals would have largely degraded before each new dosage.

After observing several days with no new ick in the few remaining fish, I bought two new EBA replacement and added to the tank. I assumed there were no ick swampers left after over dosing a week to fish death. I was wrong. The new EBA broke out with ick 3 days later, again, none other fish caught ick. So I immediately removed the EBA to a 10g hospital tank for treatment. This time I did daily 50% WC before dosing. It did not work and the EBA died in a week.

So my questions are:

1) Are there ick strains that are chemical resistant? I think MG and Formalin combo is the most potent ick killer.

2) Are there ick susceptible fish like EBA or loaches? I am wondering why other tankmates didn't show ick under the same environment.

3) Are ick spores always present, waiting for opportunity to break out. I have read contradictory verdicts. Having quarantined new fish for 2 weeks didn't help. Ick broke out again on the same species in water that has been overdosed more than a week. I am wondering if the ick spores are always present in my tank or the new EBA carried with them asymptomatically.

 

[duanes]

Some people will tell you 2 weeks is a long enough quarantine. I won't.
If a newly added fish is infected with "something", the time between 2 weeks and a month may be where the disease first manifests obvious symptoms. A new fish may only be only carrying one ick (or other) parasite, and the time it takes to reach a disease outbreak obvious population may be 6-8 weeks or more.
A friend of mine, who runs a public aquarium at a zoo, quarantines 6 months before adding any new fish to his existing population.
That out of the way, it sometimes takes a month to 6 weeks to cure ick, because all the protozoans need to get thru an entire life cycle to be eradicated. If they don't, the disease can reinfect. There is also an invisible lull after new ick, explode off the spots of older ick.
Whether certain ick has built up an immunity to meds, or heat is highly possible, especially if a treatment was not initially concentrated enough, or just the fact that many of these simple bodied animals has environmental strategies that transcend certain meds. If 1 ick individual is better suited to resist heat or a higher concentration of malachite than the rest, all it takes is that 1 individual to create an entire generation of new resistant ick.
The last time I used Rid Ick, I also brought the salinity of the tank up beyond 3ppt (parts per thousand) after an initial 2 weeks of the malachite did not show marked improvement.
Although malachite is a toxin, and doesn't not work like an antibiotic does not mean a tolerance cannot be achieved by such a simple organism.
I have heard of Tanganyikan strain resistant to highly (osmotically)concentrations of water.

 

[viejafish]

Often time, if the pathogen developed resistant to certain remedy, a different type of remedy may work. But I have few options as most commercial remedies are MG based. I can't use sallt as I have plants and 3 ppm will wipe out my plants. Copper won't work either as it is toxic to plants at thrapeutic level. Kordon makes a product called Ick Attack that is based on herbs and naphthoquinones. Do you think it works and harmless to plants?

 

[duanes]

This is the tank I used 3ppt salinity on, and these plants were unphased.
Not saying your plants may not be more sensitive, but mine came thru with flying colors

 

[Charney]

So my questions are:

1) Are there ick strains that are chemical resistant? I think MG and Formalin combo is the most potent ick killer.

There are reports of resistance out there. I will be honest I am not sure if I fully believe it. I would guess more improper treatment.
You are right MG and Formalin are consider the best treatments. A lot of people don't factor in the importance of tank Temp. You can only kill ich in the free swimming form. When it is a cyst in the gravel or on the fish you can't get it. This maybe why you got re infection. There are still probably cysts in the gravel that hatched out. Higher the temp the quicker the life cycle

2) Are there ick susceptible fish like EBA or loaches? I am wondering why other tank mates didn't show ick under the same environment. Some fish will definitely be more susceptible. some are species specific and some are due in intra tank conditions.

3) Are ick spores always present, waiting for opportunity to break out. I have read contradictory verdicts. Having quarantined new fish for 2 weeks didn't help. Ick broke out again on the same species in water that has been overdosed more than a week. I am wondering if the ick spores are always present in my tank or the new EBA carried with them asymptomatically. I don't know the official answer but I have had ich break in tanks with no new additions after a stressful event so I would suspect they are in the water. Also fish can carry it with out symptoms. Furthermore ich loves to go to the gills. Gill infection cause havoc and are not visible to you

 

[duanes]

Many may dispute this, because no studies have proven it. Probably because finding that 1 of a million is like a needle in a haystack, especially in times like these, when science is considered useless, and funding nonexistent.
But I believe in any reproductive ick cycle (or in many other simple animals like bacteria, viruses and protozoa) there are are a few cysts/phages or individuals that are on primitive "timers" that protect the animal from extinction in case of extended drought, or ice ages (whatever) allowing them to sit dormant. These timers could allow the organism to sit for a years, decades, maybe centuries, of unfit conditions, but then years later if rains occur, or the planet thaws, or..... they can re-emerge to continuation of the species.

 

[viejafish]

If roaches and insect pests can develop resistant to common pesticides, I don't see why Ick cannot develop resistant strain. But fish can also develop immunity to fight back. I just found out ick has spread to my other tank too with no new fish introduction but likely from new plant introduction. But in this tank, only one fish, a EBA, shows symptom, and none other fish are affected. I have been dosing MG/formalin remedy daily for 8 days with no improvement in the affected fish. Apparently, resistant ick strain keeps reinfecting the same fish but leaves all other fish unaffected due to natural immunity. EBA is a weak mutant and that may explain its susceptibility.

 

[Drstrangelove]

So my questions are:

1) Are there ick strains that are chemical resistant? I think MG and Formalin combo is the most potent ick killer.

All organisms have resistance to at least some chemicals. So, ich would have resistance to at least some chemicals. As we do, squirrels, oak trees, mosquitoes, fleas. etc.

I think what you might be asking is: are there some ich strains that are resistant to chemicals that kill other ich strains?

In this case, the term 'strain' implies at least two ich of the same species but with a different genetic makeup. Is there any evidence that there are different strains of the same ich species? Not anecdotal evidence---has someone published the genetic difference between two strains. And, is there any evidence that those specific differences specifically relate to chemical resistance?

Besides actually publishing the genetic makeup here is a place for a simple research project: place various ich strains in water, add chemicals, see which ones die and live. Do some strains die while others live?

Having difficulty eradicating ich from a tank does not prove it's chemically resistant.

2) Are there ick susceptible fish like EBA or loaches? I am wondering why other tankmates didn't show ick under the same environment.

Many different species of fish and other animals can be infected by ich.

I think what you might be asking is: are there some species that will get ich while other species will not, even though they are all in the same enclosure and even though all the species have an ample opportunity to be infected?

Again, that is a simple research project. Place various species in a tank, add large amounts of ich, then wait. Do some fish species die while others live?

Finding some fish dying in a tank does not prove that ich killed the fish, nor by inference that some species are immune to ich.

3) Are ick spores always present, waiting for opportunity to break out. I have read contradictory verdicts. Having quarantined new fish for 2 weeks didn't help. Ick broke out again on the same species in water that has been overdosed more than a week. I am wondering if the ick spores are always present in my tank or the new EBA carried with them asymptomatically.

Ich spores are not ubiquitous. They don't exist in the air, in frigid cold, in areas where they would dry out, nor in areas which have been sterilized. So no, they are not always present.

I think what you might be asking is: are ich spores always on fish and in the fish tanks that fish have lived in even after the fish have been removed?

This is a simple experiment. Place fish with ich in a tank. Wait 2-3 weeks. Remove fish from the tank. Examine the tank in 3 months, 6 months, 9 months, etc. Is ich in the tank?

Another related experiment applies equally well to the fish. Infect fish with ich. Wait and see if any fish retain ich (trophozoites) that do not become tomonts. Segregate all the fish that retained trophozoites. Examine the same fish after 3 months, 6 months, 9 months, etc. Are trophozoites still on the fish? Did in fact ANY fish retain trophozoites, ever?

Lastly, in another experiment, place large amounts of ich tomonts in a tank with no other animals. Examine the tank after 3 months, 6 months, 9 months, etc. Is ich in the tank? Is it still alive or is it all dead and gone?


These are not expensive science experiments. They are well within the scope of even a small college science department to allocate only a portion of it's funds to complete. For a university level, these would have no financial barriers.

I don't know if these projects were done and I've missed them but I've looked often enough to find studies to answer these questions.

Finding ich hard to eradicate doesn't mean it's ubiquitous.



Having said all the above, one should not only quarantine new fish and plants for an extensive time (6 weeks), but have a completely separate set of buckets, hoses, nets, cups, etc for quarantine tanks. Ich can travel in a drop of water.

One should not assume that one can "see" ich in the tank. It's in the tank long before it's seen.

And one should always take a long time (not a week, but at least two weeks) to be sure that the parasite has been eradicated before assuming the coast is clear.

 

[MrsE88]

Kordon makes a product called Ick Attack that is based on herbs and naphthoquinones. Do you think it works and harmless to plants?

I hope you have everything worked out now. But to answer your question, kordon ich attack does work to kill ich and doesn't harm plants, snails, or any other little critters. I have used it a few times and it works great. I use it for a good month with big water changes before each dosing.

 

[viejafish]

I am copying from Kordon web page:

"Typical treatments for Ich will depend upon the species of Ich involved, and may require six to 35 days or more in daily treatments. This means that daily partial water changes will need to be made followed by daily re-dosing of Rid-Ich+ until the infection is entirely gone. There are a number of "Ich" white spot species that can be involved, each with a different length of time of its life cycle in the white spot stage. In general these different species have different white spot stages varying from about 3 days as dormant white spots, to one week, to two weeks, to three weeks, and to 32-35 days or more. It takes an expert with microscopic examination to determine which species is involved. They all look alike. "

So I must have encountered some persistent strain of Ich that can take weeks to a month to complete the life cycle. After treating daily with Rid Ich for two weeks, I still have a female EBA that can't shake off the white spots. She still eats lightly, and the spots peppering her body appear more like scaring than new infection. There is no sign of infection in all other fish, so should I continue to treat till she is dead or free of spots.