cycling problems

[ward1066]

Ok heres my story, I had several frontosas die while i was on vacation and I really dont know the reason. I suspect float. I did a good vaccuming of the gravel and rinsed the media in tank water in my filstar fx3. I also did a big water change. After this I ordered several large Frontosas and restocked my tank, i know kinda dumb I really watched the water chemistry this time and discovered my city water has really high levels of chloramine. When i did the big water change I probaby killed my bacteria because I only used a chlorine remover. Over the first few days I did several small water changes and added amquel plus this time. I was getting really high ammonia readings I assume from the bioload and chloramine from the water releasing ammonia. I decided to stop the water changes because of the addition of ammonia from the tank water into my system. I also talked to a LFS guy and he recommended that I start using Prime and Stability over the next week and also recommended I stop the water changes. the water got really cloudy as predicted and I added small doses of prime to lock up any free ammonia over a couple days. In the meantime one of my female fronts spawned and is still holding a mouthful of eggs Also I forgot to mention that I did add a new Eheim 2180 about aa week ago and has new media in it. My question is, do I need to stop using the prime and just watch my nitrites? Will Prime always give me false high ammonia readings? I know I am probably having a mini if not a full cycle process. also how long does it take for prime to break down and get out of my water? Sorry for all the questions, but these high ammonia readings are driving me nuts. nitrires are zero, nitrates are 10. I have a 180 gallon oceanic

thanks

 

[dr_sudz]

Just keep doing what your doing, prime will actually help with your nitrites as well. Prime will detoxify the nitrites helping to keep the fish from getting burned. Hold her steady its great that your fish are even spawning durring this time!!

 

[ward1066]

Just keep doing what your doing, prime will actually help with your nitrites as well. Prime will detoxify the nitrites helping to keep the fish from getting burned. Hold her steady its great that your fish are even spawning durring this time!!

thanks, will prime always give me high ammonia readings or will it go down once my bacteria establish? thats why i wonder if I ought to stop using it

 

[brianp]

I would basically concur with Dr Sudz. You will perform a wc, which you will dechlorinate with Prime. At this point, you will have two chemicals present which will/can potentially affect your ammonia readings...chloramines and ammonia, depending upon your method of testing. If your tank already contains ammonia, then you should add an additional 25-50% Prime when you dechlorinate. The good news is that once the Prime has been added, you will now take this in stride because you know both have been bound and detoxified. You will then immediately begin daily inoculations with Stability, according to the instructions on the bottle. The Stability will now begin to oxidize BOTH the preexisting ammonia, as well as any new ammonia which your fish have discharged. You can follow the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate reading every other day. The entire cycling process will take approximately 8 days. You will know when cycling is more or less completed by the emergence of a nitrate peak and this will be accompanied by a steady decline in ammonia readings. The Prime will eventually be metabolized as a carbon source by bacteria in the tank and the sulfur it contains will be eliminated by subsequent wcs.

A word about Stability:
This product contains bacteria spores which settle to form a sticky transluscent sludge on the bottom of the bottle. These spores must be completely resuspended before use. Pour off half the liquid from the Stability bottle into a clean container and SAVE. Replace the cap and shake briskly for ten seconds. Replace the liquid you poured off, cap the bottle and invert several times to distribute the spores throughout the bottle contents. Start your inoculation regimen.

 

[ward1066]

I would basically concur with Dr Sudz. You will perform a wc, which you will dechlorinate with Prime. At this point, you will have two chemicals present which will/can potentially affect your ammonia readings...chloramines and ammonia, depending upon your method of testing. If your tank already contains ammonia, then you should add an additional 25-50% Prime when you dechlorinate. The good news is that once the Prime has been added, you will now take this in stride because you know both have been bound and detoxified. You will then immediately begin daily inoculations with Stability, according to the instructions on the bottle. The Stability will now begin to oxidize BOTH the preexisting ammonia, as well as any new ammonia which your fish have discharged. You can follow the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate reading every other day. The entire cycling process will take approximately 8 days. You will know when cycling is more or less completed by the emergence of a nitrate peak and this will be accompanied by a steady decline in ammonia readings. The Prime will eventually be metabolized as a carbon source by bacteria in the tank and the sulfur it contains will be eliminated by subsequent wcs.

A word about Stability:
This product contains bacteria spores which settle to form a sticky transluscent sludge on the bottom of the bottle. These spores must be completely resuspended before use. Pour off half the liquid from the Stability bottle into a clean container and SAVE. Replace the cap and shake briskly for ten seconds. Replace the liquid you poured off, cap the bottle and invert several times to distribute the spores throughout the bottle contents. Start your inoculation regimen.

thanks, so once I started using the stability I should not have to add any daily prime,,this carbon source you said could possibly andd more nutrients and thus more ammonia? good tip on the shaking of stability, i was just worried that with such high ammonia(m) readings that possibly the stability couldnt keep up and the free ammonia that the fish excretes would gradually
creep up and cause harm. I only added 2 capfuls of prime today to be on safe side.

 

[brianp]

thanks, so once I started using the stability I should not have to add any daily prime,,this carbon source you said could possibly andd more nutrients and thus more ammonia? good tip on the shaking of stability, i was just worried that with such high ammonia(m) readings that possibly the stability couldnt keep up and the free ammonia that the fish excretes would gradually
creep up and cause harm. I only added 2 capfuls of prime today to be on safe side.

Correct. Once the bacteria in Stability begin to metabolize the ammonia (both free and complexed), Prime is no longer required. The "carbon source" I refer to is consumed by the bacteria, not the fish and hence, will have no effect upon ammonia levels. The fish excrete ammonia as a biproduct of the protein in their diet. Actually, having free or complexed ammonia present when you add the Stability is probably a good thing in terms of allowing the bacteria to rapidly gain a foothold. Keep an eye on your fish during this process. If the Prime has detoxified and the bacteria in Stability are doing their job, your fish should appear to be relaxed and eating well, regardless of what your ammonia readings appear to be indicating.

 

[ward1066]

Correct. Once the bacteria in Stability begin to metabolize the ammonia (both free and complexed), Prime is no longer required. The "carbon source" I refer to is consumed by the bacteria, not the fish and hence, will have no effect upon ammonia levels. The fish excrete ammonia as a biproduct of the protein in their diet. Actually, having free or complexed ammonia present when you add the Stability is probably a good thing in terms of allowing the bacteria to rapidly gain a foothold. Keep an eye on your fish during this process. If the Prime has detoxified and the bacteria in Stability are doing their job, your fish should appear to be relaxed and eating well, regardless of what your ammonia readings appear to be indicating.

thanks again, I guess I am just a little nervous because the ammonia levels are not moving at all and I am in day 5 of the stability. it might have even gone up a little (4ppm+) I havent fed anything since the spawn because she is still holding the eggs and I was told to wait 5 days to feed. I guess this is a good thing for the cycle. Fish act fine which is amazing to me

 

[brianp]

thanks again, I guess I am just a little nervous because the ammonia levels are not moving at all and I am in day 5 of the stability. it might have even gone up a little (4ppm+) I havent fed anything since the spawn because she is still holding the eggs and I was told to wait 5 days to feed. I guess this is a good thing for the cycle. Fish act fine which is amazing to me

I would feed the fish, but not overdo it. You don't want to short circuit the cycling process by eliminating ammonia production and it is not absolutely clear specifically what nitrogenous substance your readings are indicating. Also, the willingness of the fish to eat is a good empirical indicator of their general state of health/stress. Do you see a nitrate peak appearing?

 

[ward1066]

I would feed the fish, but not overdo it. You don't want to short circuit the cycling process by eliminating ammonia production and it is not absolutely clear specifically what nitrogenous substance your readings are indicating. Also, the willingness of the fish to eat is a good empirical indicator of their general state of health/stress. Do you see a nitrate peak appearing?

Im reading about 10 nitrate, I dont think i will have a sudden drop in ammonia because I have like 11 fronts that are all around 5-6 in. wouldnt they produce quite a bit of ammonia just from respiration?

 

[brianp]

Im reading about 10 nitrate, I dont think i will have a sudden drop in ammonia because I have like 11 fronts that are all around 5-6 in. wouldnt they produce quite a bit of ammonia just from respiration?

OK, this nitrate peak is a good sign. If only ammonia, per se, if reacting with your test kit then it will plummet to a reading of ZERO. The reason for this is that the bacteria will "surge" to consume the inital amount of ammonia present and then their metabolic profiles will retreat to a steady state in which they are essentially oxiding new ammonia as quickly as it is excreted by the fish. Hence, the ammonia never has a chance to accumulate. The nitrate can only be derived from a single starting material...the ammonia (via nitrite). The appearance of a healthy nitrate peak can only mean that the ammonia is being oxidized (presumably, by the Stability). Continue with the Stability inoculation regimen for another three days and continue feeding your fish and observing them. At the end of eight days, perform a 30-40% wc (whatever is required to drop the nitrate level to , say 10 ppm). Continue to dechlorinate with Prime. Take another set of water parameter readings...ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. The ammonia is produced by the fish urinating into the water.