De Filter into a K! Media Filter?

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Mavrick813

Candiru
MFK Member
Dec 28, 2010
980
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48
Hamilton, NJ
Anyone ever think of doing an Overflow from the tank through a DE Filter, Out of the DE Filter, through a Moviing K1 Media Filter and return back to the tank. Would gravity be enough to force the water through the DE Filter? I am putting a picture in here to see where you guys would stick pumps in a set-up like this. As I've got a spare Hayward DE Filter sitting in the yard. Maybe this will be my next big filter upgrade instead of another FX5...

Mike

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Is the K1 media filter a sealed canister or open container? Are you concerned about debris getting in the K1 filter?

Which Hayward DE filter do you have? I am running their EC40 which is their smallest available DE filter and it is way oversized for my 110g. Being way oversized has not had any negative effects that I have been able to find.

My concern with your configuration is you would need a pump to charge the DE filter with. Could you put a course prefilter (maybe a course filter sock) before the K1 filter? Then move the DE filter to after the K1 filter? If the K1 is an open sump type arrangement this would work perfectly. To charge the DE filter you would want to redirect the output of the DE filter into the sump then add the DE powder to the sump. You would run it in this configuration until the sump water is clear (no more DE cloud), probably about 5 minutes. Then return the output of the DE filter to your aquarium.

It has been my experience that once the DE is set on the filter screens in the DE filter it stays there very well. When I knock the DE off the filter screen every month or so as part of the DE filter maintence I will get a very small cloud of DE in the tank. I don't worry about this very small cloud since it clears up very quickly. If I were to worry about the cloud during maintenance I could simply redirect the DE filter output into the sump.

Do you keep your K1 suspended in the water, always moving, or is it static, resting on the bottom of the filter? Not that this should matter when it comes to the DE filter.

Edit: never mind I see you are using moving (suspended) K1. Are you suspending it with air or a jet of water?

I think the best location for the pump in the configuration I described would be in the K1 filter if it is an open filter. If the K1 filter is a sealed filter I would put the pump before the K! filter.
 
My idea with the Order that I posted was that the DE would do all the Mech filtering. Then dump into the K1 Filter. The K1 would be moving with Air. Several bubble disks or tubes on the bottom of the tank. I was thinking of using a few Maxi Jets 1200s because I have them laying here as well. I'm not sure exactly which Hayward DE I have as all the stickers have fallen off over time. It looks very similar to the one you have posted in your pics.

My Main concern is that Gravity form the Over flow would not be enough to get the water through the DE and would eventually stop flowing all together. Causing my return pump in my K1 to empty the sump and overflow my main tank.

If I am going to go with the DE after the K1, My K1 is going to get introduced to all the Poo, and large waste. I think this would lower the efficiancy of the K1. Unless I set the sump up as a staged Filter. IE. Tank into Filter socks, Through K1 and then pumped through DE. Return to Tank. But wouldn't this negate the DE as the Mech Filter. Since the sock would be doing the dirty work? I change my filter sock every morning. What I am trying to accomplish is coming up with an idea that would allow me to not need a Sock any more, and Eliminate the need to clean out any Mech excepting 1 a week or 1 a month back washing.

The K1 would be an Open 38G tank with a Plexi or glass lid to reduce Evaporation. High output LED Lighting and either 2-3 Maxi jets powering it with Rena 400s feeding bubbles into the jets. Or just the 3 Rena 400s and several Bubble disks.

Lastly. For those of you guys that have the K1 Beds set-up. I know that the tumbling of the K1 media dislodges older algae and BB from the media causing NEW growth. If was the first line of filtration, and the K1 Second, that K1 debris (for lack of a better term) would be pumped right back into the main tank?

What do ya think?

Mike
 
I run a wet dry sump with bio balls. I really like this configuration as I have an unsubstantiated belief that high water oxygen levels are a great buffer for when other levels get a bit out of whack. In other words having very oxygen rich water allows fish to better deal with other parameters that aren't ideal. The only configuration I have seen with greater O2 inducing potential than a wet/dry sump is the bubbling K1 bed. From the implementations I have seen this looks like the top of the line for bio filtration to me!

But that is just my opinion without any substantial evidence backing it up.

Here is more of my unsubstantiated theory of filtration based more on common sense than any evidence. If you remove the waste before it gets broken down you don't have to worry about the Nitrates the waste would be broken down into. If you buy this theory your daily sock changes are pretty optimal for keeping nitrate levels low.

What is the mesh size of the socks you are running currently?

In my eyes the beauty of the DE filter is the very fine particle size it is able to trap and the lack of maintence in having to clean out the DE filter. I would guess even those small particles are organic and as such will eventually end up as nitrates. So if your over all goal is to keep nitrate levels as low as possible while minimizing water changes a large capacity mechanical filter is probably counter productive to this goal.

Continuing along this line of thought if you don't filter out the debris before the K1 it will either be trapped in the K1 to be broken down or trapped in the DE to be broken down. My way of dealing with this is to use Pothos to remove the nitrates from the water. Whether the debris is trapped in the K1 and shed by the tumbling of the K1 and passed on to the DE to be filtered OR the Debris is trapped in the DE before it reaches the K1... DOES it really matter which is first? If anything I would think you would want the debris trapped where the oxygen levels and bacterial levels are the highest and in theory break down the quickest????

Writing this makes me think about what my filtration goals are for keeping fish. I think my goals are probably keeping a very healthy environment for the fish with the least amount of effort. As such, the large DE filter works very well for my goal. I use a wet/dry sump for biological filtration. This breaks organic compounds down to nitrates. I use Pothos and other terrestrial plants to control the nitrate levels in the water between water changes. I plan on implementing a continuous drip water change system to eliminate the need for water changes altogether. The DE filter gives me incredibly clean clear water with practically no effort. I have tried a Magnum 350, an Ocean Clear cartridge filter and Big Blue cartridge filters. All of them are pretty high maintence and none of them have given me the clarity that DE does.

Does clear water equate to a healthier environment for the fish? I would guess that for the most part it does not. I would guess that for the most part clear water is more for aesthetics than for fish health. I would point out how ever the DE literature that highlight the ability of DE to filter out pathogens and diseases such as Ick. I have noticed a big reduction in the amount of algae in my tank since implementing the DE filter. I attribute this to the DE removing the free floating algae from the water before it can settle and colonize... but this is probably a pretty dubious claim on my part and I would recommend viewing with a good bit of skepticism!

The only practical some what automated way I have seen for removing large debris from the water column is a technology used in the pond keeping world... the cetus sieve. C440medium.jpg

Which looks to be a marvelous piece of simplistic engineering!

So what are your filtration goals as they pertain to fish keeping?

To actually answer your question: I would be worried about gravity fed DE water filtration eventually backing up and causing problems also!

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