Deformed fry

[Showtimekev]

I was finally able to outcross my Honduran red points. I got them both from 2 different sources and they’re really colorful fish. I just wanted to create more genetic diversity and not have fish that were related. So now that the fry are free swimming, out of 20 fry, I can see that 5 of them have crooked tails, how could this be? I thought that only happened when you had deep inbreeding down the line? Any explanation would be appreciated.

 

[duanes]

In any spawn, there will be a number of deformed fry.
To me, 5 is not a large number.
Just cull them so as not to pass those deformed genes along.
And just because you got them from two different sources, doesn't mean someone down the line wasn't as persnickety about culling, and allowed some less than
perfect individuals pass.

 

[Deadeye]

duanes beat me to it
Like he said, in any cross there will be mutations that cause deformities. This is just amplified with excessive inbreeding.

 

[duanes]

There are also environmental factors that can cause deformities.
If pH is too high, or too low.
If water temp is off.
If nitrates are too high when the brood first hatches, and plenty of other reasons.
If any 1 or more are off when eggs are first put down, or if the parents experienced something that altered genetics in the past, there is a possibility of deformities.
About 10 years ago, a number of cichlidophilles (including me) bought Tomocichla asfraci from someone who had successfully spawned the species, we were all
ecstatic to finally get some.
As they grew, it turned out every person I talked to who bought them (encluding me)said 99% were deformed, and even those that looked OK were suspected of having screwed up genes.

I believe I bought 10 juvies, you can sort of see above some snub nose faces (kind of like BPs)
Most slowly died off, but a couple lived, and looked, just OK.

The one above was one that looked OK on the surface.
I ended up giving it to another aquarist who had mostly mutants that died, but one was "OK"
I think both ended up dying.
Just because they look outwardly OK, doesn't mean they are.
EBJDs come to mind..

 

[DMD123]

I got them both from 2 different sources and they’re really colorful fish. I just wanted to create more genetic diversity and not have fish that were related.

What were your sources? There is a chance that if it were two different local stores they may still be ordering from the same major supplier. For example both stores may be using Segrest Farms or Cichlid Exchange and the reality is you are just breeding sibling anyways. Most stores wont give up info on their suppliers but going in to my local stores regularly Ive spotted the shipping boxes so Im familiar with where they get the fish from.

 

[neutrino]

Agree with Duane. It's actually pretty complex and as he says there are multiple potential causes. Some of them you'd never think of. One such is a failure of the swim bladder to properly inflate on time. The extra mechanical stress of a fish larva swimming in this condition is believed to affect the development of the spine, which is still forming-- so you get curvature. A study on angelfish found an association between methylene blue in fry tanks and swim bladder non-inflation-- so there you have a bit of a detective story with the original contributor being fairly cryptic.

Not that I'm a biologist, but from what I've read some tricky biochemical processes have to happen correctly and right on schedule for fry to develop properly. It's an amazing process, really. So, it may or may not be genetic. The same parents may have a number of deformed fry in one spawn and very few or none in another.

 

[dogofwar]

From what I understand, all of the actual Honduran Red Points are originally from a handful of fish that Rusty Wessel collected and introduced to the hobby in 2002. So they're all related and inbred at least a few generations, no matter if you buy them from one source or another.

That said, the chances of fish being sold as HRP are actually pure HRPs is very small, unless they're from TUIC, Rusty himself or a precious few other sources that can describe provenance. Most HRPs in the hobby have, uh, introduced genetic diversity through indiscriminate crossing with fish of unknown provenance or just convicts that are labeled as HRPs.

As an aside, a few generations of inbreeding is fine, just so that aberrant fish are removed from the breeding pool.

I was finally able to outcross my Honduran red points. I got them both from 2 different sources and they’re really colorful fish. I just wanted to create more genetic diversity and not have fish that were related. So now that the fry are free swimming, out of 20 fry, I can see that 5 of them have crooked tails, how could this be? I thought that only happened when you had deep inbreeding down the line? Any explanation would be appreciated.