Different PH (BAG and TANK)

  • We are currently upgrading MFK. thanks! -neo

batang_mcdo

Polypterus
MFK Member
Apr 24, 2006
2,110
156
96
Manila
I just brought home a new fish.
Its still in the bag. I tested the ph of the water in the bag and its around 4. My tank's ph is 8. I'm currently adding some water from my tank into the bag. every 15 minutes I'm doing this. Will this be ok? I've already removed water from bag and added water from my tank. The bags ph is still only at about 5.5 :( I removed water from the bag and added the tanks water 3 times already. so its been 45 minutes
any suggestions?
 
I just brought home a new fish.
Its still in the bag. I tested the ph of the water in the bag and its around 4. My tank's ph is 8. I'm currently adding some water from my tank into the bag. every 15 minutes I'm doing this. Will this be ok? I've already removed water from bag and added water from my tank. The bags ph is still only at about 5.5 :( I removed water from the bag and added the tanks water 3 times already. so its been 45 minutes
any suggestions?

If the tank water is near the ambient one, you could transfer the fish and the bag's water in a 5 gallons bucket. Then, like what you are prensently doing, gradually add water from the tank until the bucket is almost full.
 
Wow, pH of 4? Must be an amazonian species? Add some prime (or any water conditioner that detoxifies ammonia) to the water the fish is in if you haven't already, because as your raise the pH more and more ammonium in the water will turn into ammonia. Also add an air stone, and continue slowly acclimating the fish.
 
Could be lots of things. PH isn't important, it's the differences in TDS and GH that can send a fish into osmotic shock. There could be lots of co2 in the bag, causing a higher concentration of co2 in the water, thereby lowering the PH, just like a co2-injected planted tank. If you were to open the bag and let it sit for a while, the PH would go up. Just acclimate the fish slowly like you've been doing to bring the hardness levels close to equal, then you can dump the fish in.
 
Could be lots of things. PH isn't important, it's the differences in TDS and GH that can send a fish into osmotic shock. There could be lots of co2 in the bag, causing a higher concentration of co2 in the water, thereby lowering the PH, just like a co2-injected planted tank. If you were to open the bag and let it sit for a while, the PH would go up. Just acclimate the fish slowly like you've been doing to bring the hardness levels close to equal, then you can dump the fish in.

Differences in TDS and GH are certainly important and often neglected, but pH is important as well as it effects a variety of metabolic functions and can directly effect the immune system. Yes fish can tolerate relatively small swings in pH as long as other parameters are not affected (e.g. with CO2), but at a certain point a fish cannot acclimate to a large sudden swing in pH even if all other parameters remain constant (and at extreme pHs no life can acclimate).
The effects of pH changes may have been exaggerated in the hobby, but with sudden swings larger than about 2 there are problems.
 
Differences in TDS and GH are certainly important and often neglected, but pH is important as well as it effects a variety of metabolic functions and can directly effect the immune system. Yes fish can tolerate relatively small swings in pH as long as other parameters are not affected (e.g. with CO2), but at a certain point a fish cannot acclimate to a large sudden swing in pH even if all other parameters remain constant (and at extreme pHs no life can acclimate).
The effects of pH changes may have been exaggerated in the hobby, but with sudden swings larger than about 2 there are problems.

Yeah, but we aren't talking about extreme ends of the PH scale either. We're not dealing with vinegar or battery acid. Several waters in south America have ph in the 4s. Back on the subject of ph swings being dangerous, I still say that's a myth. I'll just copy/paste this good write-up:

Myths of pH Shock
After a several days spent researching the effects of pH on fish I have more questions than answers and I am absolutely surprised at the lack of available viable information. Sure, there are thousands of web sites and forums posting the same old information about “pH shock”… about never allowing more than a .3 change in pH units within a 24 hour period, etc… but I have found absolutely no scientific data to back up this assertion. What I did find is quite the opposite. I found a scientific study that identified fish can survive a 1.7 shift in pH units without difficulty, I found a study published for the commercial fish industry that identifies a shift under 2 pH units should be acceptable, I found a study where fish (rainbow trout) moved from a pH of 7.2 to a pH of 8.5 suffered no ill effects, and I am finding a different train of thought, with a bases in science, that “pH shock” is a myth. There is no such thing. The real issue appears to be “Osmotic Shock”. Secondly, as the pH changes, the toxicity of other substances in the water changes. It is these two issues that are the actual cause of mortalities usually attributed to “pH Shock”.
Osmotic Shock:

Fish maintain their body fluid levels and release toxins via a process known as osmosis, also referred to, when used in a discussion of this process in fish, as osmoregulation. The function of this process is dependent upon the amount of Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) in the water. For a better understanding of this process, and the relationship it has with TDS, review the following:



The catch, as it relates to this discussion, is that any action (not involving CO2) that changes the pH of the water is generally a result of the change in TDS. Hard water generally has high TDS levels, high pH, high KH, and high GH. Soft water generally is low in TDS, a low pH, KH, and GH. The occurrence of a pH rise, or decline, (not involving CO2) is generally accompanied by an increase or decrease in TDS. It is this change in TDS and the resulting change in osmotic pressure that impacts our fish.

The problem is not a shift in pH; it's a move between hard water and soft water. It's a change in the amount of TDS and this change is better-measured using KH and GH readings than it is using pH readings.

For all of you folks who continue to use salt as a constant tonic, salt is increasing the TDS. A large water change without replacing the salt can cause these same issues (as can refilling a tank and then re-adding salt, in which case you are double whamming your fish), as can adding salt to an aquarium too quickly. This can also impact new fish brought into the aquarium, as they may be accustomed to a TDS level lower than what is in your tank. The pH levels in each of these circumstances may be the same, but the TDS levels will be different, and it is an abrupt change in TDS levels that is the real cause of “pH shock”.
pH effects on other substances:

We are all aware (or at least should be) of the effect pH has on the toxicity of ammonia. At a lower pH, ammonia is converted into ammonium, which is not toxic. As the pH increases, ammonium is converted into ammonia, which is toxic. What is less known is that pH has the same effect on other toxic substances such as chromium, mercury, copper, and iron.

As the pH falls (solution becomes more acidic) many insoluble substances become more soluble and thus available for absorption. For example, 4 mg/L of iron would not present a toxic effect at a pH of 4.8. However, as little as 0.9 mg/L of iron at a pH of 5.5 can cause fish to die.
It is these effects that present the myth of “pH shock”. It is not the change in the pH itself that causes issues thought of as “pH shock”. It is the physiological effects associated with an abrupt change in TDS and/or the synergistic effects of pH increases, or decreases, on toxic compounds within the water.

Evidence of this can be achieved by observing planted tanks with CO2 supplementation. These tanks can experience wide swings in pH over a 24-hour period with no ill effect on the fish, especially for those who turn off their CO2 regulators at night. Why can the pH change in these tanks without impacting the fish? Because carbon dioxide is influencing pH without affecting the amount of TDS in the tanks.
How Does This Affect Us:

Outside of a better understanding of our water chemistry and its effect on our fish, this information, alone, should not provide a bases for changing what we are doing in acclimating our fish and aging our water (when necessary).

My tap water comes out with a pH of 8.4, 3dKH, 4dGH; relatively soft water with a high pH. However, the pH declines to neutral within a short amount of time (a couple of hours at most). The pH declines but the KH and GH do not. This may be because the water company is adding some type of temporary alkali to the water that precipitates out once the water is no longer under pressure. I am currently aging my replacement water overnight to allow the pH to stabilize and match the water in the tank. While I am investigating discontinuing this practice, I will not do so until I have a better understanding of what (if) the water company is adding to the water resulting in this effect. I will not do so until I am able to confirm that the temporary alkali they are (maybe) using is not affecting the amount of TDS in my tanks. While my KH and GH readings do not change, this does not mean my TDS levels are the same. (Remember, aquarium salt will increase the TDS levels of your tank but will not impact pH, GH, or KH. It could be that the temporary alkali being utilized by the water company has a similar effect).

It may also be that my tap water is totally void of CO2 and that it subsequently picks up this compound from the atmosphere, resulting in the drop in pH. In fact, if you use a CO2 calculator and input a pH of 8.4 and a KH of 3dH (my tap water readings), the result is 0ppm CO2. If you then input a pH of 7 with the same KH of 3dH (my tap water readings after it has sat out for a while), the CO2 has increased to 9ppm. If you do the same math, adding 9ppm CO2 to my tap water, then the pH will drop to 7, which is exactly what I am experiencing. If this were the case (and I am seeking information from my water company for confirmation), then it should be perfectly safe to go straight from the tap to my tank even though there is a differential of 1.4pH.

Fact is, something is influencing the pH of my tap water and I do not know what it is. Until I have that answer, I will continue to age my replacement water before use.

For those of you on well water (or even city water, if the water company is adding CO2 to increase alkalinity of the water while it is in their pipes), if the cause of a pH increase (once water is pulled from the well) is CO2 precipitating from the water, then there is no need to age your water before it is added to the tank. It can safely be added straight from the well provided the pH is not to an extreme (for this purpose, I would use a pH of 6.4 as the extreme) and the end result does not constitute a change in pH above 1.3 units (being conservative).

If you're on well water (or city water, if the water company is stripping CO2 to decrease acidity of the water while it is in their pipes), and your water is devoid of CO2, the pH will naturally drop once the water has access to the atmosphere. This type of fluctuation in pH, provided the shift is below 1.7ph units, and you do not have ultra-sensitive fish (Discus come to mind), should not be harmful.

Now, all of this said, there remain pH extremes that can cause “pH shock”. In the wild, fish avoid waters below pH 5.4 and above 11.4. There are studies that indicate exposure to pH in these extremes can cause physiological damage and mortality. However, most environmental studies conducted on the impacts of “acid rain” and agricultural run off have determined that the pH shifts resulting from these events has a devastating effect on plants and microorganisms, which in turn, as each layer of the food chain is impacted, results in a decline in fish population. Again, provided the change is not to the extremes, physiological impacts on the fish, of the pH shift itself, is not the cause of increased fish mortality during these events.
 
Right, we are talking about a swing from 4 to 8, which is large. I've read this write-up, and I have read several research articles (including those cited by this article) on acclimating fish to varying pHs, all of which support what I just stated: Fish can handle pH swings up to about 2 well in a short period of time, but at a certain point they simply cannot acclimate rapidly enough and there are consequences.
 
Right, we are talking about a swing from 4 to 8, which is large. I've read this write-up, and I have read several research articles (including those cited by this article) on acclimating fish to varying pHs, all of which support what I just stated: Fish can handle pH swings up to about 2 well, but at a certain point they simply cannot acclimate rapidly enough and there are consequences.

Yeah, but you're missing the important part of the article: "The catch, as it relates to this discussion, is that any action (not involving CO2) that changes the pH of the water is generally a result of the change in TDS." If it's not co2-related, then the differences in PH can be attributed to soft vs. hard water, which comes down the GH and KH, which ultimately comes down to TDS. PH shock is purely 'osmotic shock', which is better measured when looking at the bigger picture, GH and TDS, not PH. But I understand that not everybody has the means to test GH, KH and TDS. Most don't even care to know what these are. All they have is a PH test kit and blame any sort of sudden death or 'shock' on their PH. That is where the whole myth came from many years ago.
 
thanks :) I think the previous owner's tank has a extremenly low ph, thus this fish was already not eating :)
Its an arowana hehe. It has only been bagged for 15 minutes.
when i released him into the tank, he seems to be shedding some slime last night, but so far today, he looks ok.
anything i should be looking out for?
 
MonsterFishKeepers.com