Ethics on GM Nitro Bacteria

[Doc-Fish]

I dont want a flame war, i am simply asking for views on a somewhat contentious topic.

Many of the bacterial species we rely on in filtration, have fairly long division times. Depending on temperature,PH and other factors, this can range from around 21 -36 hours in aquariums, i am aware the quoted figures are 12h -32h, but the 12 hour figure is at a temperature beyond aquariums.

While it would seem easy enough to take a plasmid from say a Nitrosomas, and splice into E.coli for example. In practice it isnt as easy as that. Most of the bacteria we rely on in aquariums grow easy enough in them, but growing pure strains in a lab setting using culture media, is far from easy.

There are several detailed papers explaining how difficult it can be to get them to grow in lab conditions. Something i have worked on part time at home, has show some success, there are major differences in as much as, i am not using a culture only set up, instead i used a matrix approach with a suitable media.

While my microbe of choice would not be E.coli, there are a number of possible candidates for splicing. From a purely technical perspective, it is not a straightforward process but i believe it would be possible.

benefits would be obvious, such as reduced cycle times etc, one of the downsides would be the bacteria would out-compete most of the normal species. Depending on the microbe chosen you would also have to be careful of mutations, the last thing you want is for the process to reverse!

What i am interested in however, is what are peoples attitudes to using GM modified bacteria for aquariums? Forget all the legal requirements for now, thats a different subject. But as aquarium keepers, how would you feel about using GM modified bacteria in the filter?

 

[Angelphish]

I dont want a flame war, i am simply asking for views on a somewhat contentious topic.

Many of the bacterial species we rely on in filtration, have fairly long division times. Depending on temperature,PH and other factors, this can range from around 21 -36 hours in aquariums, i am aware the quoted figures are 12h -32h, but the 12 hour figure is at a temperature beyond aquariums.

While it would seem easy enough to take a plasmid from say a Nitrosomas, and splice into E.coli for example. In practice it isnt as easy as that. Most of the bacteria we rely on in aquariums grow easy enough in them, but growing pure strains in a lab setting using culture media, is far from easy.

There are several detailed papers explaining how difficult it can be to get them to grow in lab conditions. Something i have worked on part time at home, has show some success, there are major differences in as much as, i am not using a culture only set up, instead i used a matrix approach with a suitable media.

While my microbe of choice would not be E.coli, there are a number of possible candidates for splicing. From a purely technical perspective, it is not a straightforward process but i believe it would be possible.

benefits would be obvious, such as reduced cycle times etc, one of the downsides would be the bacteria would out-compete most of the normal species. Depending on the microbe chosen you would also have to be careful of mutations, the last thing you want is for the process to reverse!

What i am interested in however, is what are peoples attitudes to using GM modified bacteria for aquariums? Forget all the legal requirements for now, thats a different subject. But as aquarium keepers, how would you feel about using GM modified bacteria in the filter?

As long as works faster, works right, and doesn't do anything extra, I'd be fine with it.

 

[Doc-Fish]

As long as works faster, works right, and doesn't do anything extra, I'd be fine with it.

It isnt close to be tried yet, but some of the hurdles have been sorted out. The next step if i decide to pursue it are to choose the target bacteria from the modification, actually that has proved much harder than normal.

It is also not cheap to sequence potential candidates.

 

[knobhill]

Do fish or aquarium inhabitants benefit from bacteria strains? I know certain types of beneficial bacteria grow on the skin of fish, would a gm strain have a negative effect on fishes health?

The main thing for me is the health of my fish, I don't care if the bb is natural or gm.

 

[Doc-Fish]

Do fish or aquarium inhabitants benefit from bacteria strains? I know certain types of beneficial bacteria grow on the skin of fish, would a gm strain have a negative effect on fishes health?

The main thing for me is the health of my fish, I don't care if the bb is natural or gm.

Great question, this is one reason of many why the strain chosen needs to be picked carefully.

Strictly speaking the strains involved dont live well in open oxygen rich water. they need a lower oxygen level that open water generally has.

So far it seems the principle dosnt alarm people, its more the technical aspects and safety. It could in theory be done very quickly using something like E.coli, however this is one reason why it is taking time to evaluate a suitable candidate.

Even then i cant say how far it will go, i would like to research it and get a working strain in the lab, but currently i havnt begun to think if i would take it as far as production. For me its a research project, i havnt given any thought to it being used. The question is more to gauge the general reaction to GM.

On a totally different path, i am working on a new filter media, it uses tried and tested bacteria already in the aquarium, but the why its used cuts down cycle times and Ammonia conversion significantly.

I may well take this further, at the moment i am deciding how best to fund the next step.

 

[Drstrangelove]

What i am interested in however, is what are peoples attitudes to using GM modified bacteria for aquariums? Forget all the legal requirements for now, thats a different subject. But as aquarium keepers, how would you feel about using GM modified bacteria in the filter?

I wouldn't use it.

I won't get into the genetics issue because this is a fish forum, but using genetic modifications in any situation where there is already a suitable, low-cost alternative makes little sense to me. If we are using GM to eradicate malaria, yellow fever, or trypanosomiasis, I'm on board, because other than irradiation, there aren't many viable options.

Let's examine what we are risking. These GM BB will be released into the wild. That's certain. Will they out compete existing BB? (Probably.) Will they mutate into something more destructive or less efficient? (Possibly.) Will they be more susceptible to mass depopulation due to a lack of genetic diversity? (Probably.)

This has a miniscule upside and a huge downside. I don't support those types of choices.

 

[Doc-Fish]

I wouldn't use it.

I won't get into the genetics issue because this is a fish forum, but using genetic modifications in any situation where there is already a suitable, low-cost alternative makes little sense to me. If we are using GM to eradicate malaria, yellow fever, or trypanosomiasis, I'm on board, because other than irradiation, there aren't many viable options.

In many cases, it's just Jurassic Park science, IMO. Doing something that shouldn't be done, but can.

I totally respect your opinion, the only point i would make in defense, is lets say a filter failed or medication destroyed a filter. Currently most of the bacterial main players take upto 32 hours to make one division, so in this kind of situation a bacteria that divides every 11 mins would drastically shorten cycle times and the filter would be at full strength in a couple of days, instead of say 4-12 weeks.

BUT your point is valid, and while much of my working life involves altering genes, i fully respect those that take an opposite stance to my own. Interestingly enough, despite my job i wont eat GM crops. I have no scientific basis for not doing so, it is my personal preference not to do so.

Thank you for being honest and speaking up though, i appreciate reasoned debate.

 

[Doc-Fish]

I wouldn't use it.

I won't get into the genetics issue because this is a fish forum, but using genetic modifications in any situation where there is already a suitable, low-cost alternative makes little sense to me. If we are using GM to eradicate malaria, yellow fever, or trypanosomiasis, I'm on board, because other than irradiation, there aren't many viable options.

Let's examine what we are risking. These GM BB will be released into the wild. That's certain. Will they out compete existing BB? (Probably.) Will they mutate into something more destructive or less efficient? (Possibly.) Will they be more susceptible to mass depopulation due to a lack of genetic diversity? (Probably.)

Should we save hobbyists a little start up time while simultaneously running a world wide experiment to see whether we have done untold amount of damage?

Out of interest would you use a media that wasnt genetically modified in any way, but used a new technique to speed up the Ammonia conversion process? The bacteria havnt been modified in any genetic sense, its simple a new type of media.

 

[Drstrangelove]

Out of interest would you use a media that wasnt genetically modified in any way, but used a new technique to speed up the Ammonia conversion process? The bacteria havnt been modified in any genetic sense, its simple a new type of media.

Yes. Absolutely.