evolutionary memory sensorage

[shekes]

In a thread that was recently closed Miles posted info on fish behaviour that implied that behavioural instructions, as precise as "avoid this species of fish but bite this one" can be inherited, passing from generation to generation. Miles backed it up with what seemed to be serious emperical evidence.

My question: How is it supposed to work? Is this info supposed to be carried by DNA?
I have never heard of a genetic research claiming that. Surely your instinct would tell: run from something large with a big mouth that is running towards you, but particular species?!!

Some people are afraid of spiders and the common opinion on that is that that it is irrational because spiders are harmless. I disagree. There are quite a few spiders that aren't harmless at all. We may now live in conditions where there aren't any dangerous spiders but our instincts are still right.

As recent as two weeks ago I was exploring the Ibera wetlands wildlife. We were on a nocturnal excursion and the lights we used attracted lots of nocturnal insects to our boat. One of the girls was trembling in terror. Trying to calm her down I was telling her that they were all harmless and even grabbed some for demonstration. But she said that she wasn't afraid of those and pointed to one particularly meaty thing that she was absolutely terrified of. In order to calm her I asked the local guide about it. Guess what?
This thing can deliver very painful, long-lasting, sometimes dangerous bites that contain some sort of a worm or something.

So does anybody know how evolutionary memory sensorage works? Any links to some SERIOUS genetic or empirical research?

There are even some stories of people who got hit on the head (don't try it at home ) and "remembered" Chinese and stuff. That should stay out of this thread though.

 

[rumblesushi]

it's an interesting theory, and even without doing further research myself - one that I believe.

instinct does not come from individual experience, so it must come from evolutionary memory - where else?

 

[Miles]

I will do some research and see if I can find the original peice of information that i was referring to.. In the meanwhile, I will continue to post whatever interesting facts that I might come across..

Check this one out:

Using a combination of behavioral, neuroanatomical, molecular, and ecological techniques, the lab investigates how habitat structure and mating system shape brain structure and function in a model evolutionary system: the highly visual cichlid fishes of the African Great Lakes. Cichlid fishes are renowned for undergoing the most explosive vertebrate species radiation known, for diverse habitat preferences, and for diverse social behaviors (cooperative breeding, territoriality, lek formation, harems, monogamy, and bower building). This system enables Dr. Shumway and colleagues to make fine ecological, behavioral, and neuronal comparisons, providing an unparalleled opportunity to understand how environmental and social pressures shape brain structure and function.

What significance does this research have to humans? The complex behaviors Dr. Shumway studies (spatial orientation and social organization) involve cognitive and social tasks of direct relevance to human behavior. Further, the question of whether environmental or social forces shape brain evolution is at the heart of controversies surrounding our own (primate) evolution. Primate biologists are still debating whether environmental factors, social factors, or both led to primate telencephalic expansion (Dunbar, 2002); because of phylogenetic confounds and a limited number of species available for study, the answer is difficult to resolve in primates. Finally, cichlids provide a superb comparative vertebrate model for studying the evolution of social behavior. The ca. 250 Tanganyikan cichlid species have the most diverse social behaviors and the highest level of parental care known for fish.

Behaviorally, Dr. Shumway and colleagues are: exploring spatial memory, spatial acuity, species and individual recognition (using computer animated stimuli), and behavioral differences in the field (Lake Tanganyika, Tanzania), using SCUBA. Neuroanatomically, they are comparing the relative size of the telencephalon (homologous to our cerebral cortex), hippocampal homologue, Dl, and exploring the role of the neuropeptide vasotocin in species differing in social organization.

Results to date show that both habitat complexity and social organization sculpt brain and behavior. Fishes from more complex habitats have a larger telencephalon, better visual acuity, and a 36% larger area of the hippocampal homologue, Dl, implicated in spatial memory, compared to fishes from simpler habitats. Social organization affects brain and behavior in the following ways: monogamous fish have a bigger telencephalon than polygamous fish; polygamous fish, however, have better visual acuity, larger home ranges and increased measures of aggression. Currently, Dr. Shumway and colleagues are working to identify the neural features underlying the effects of habitat complexity on brain and behavior; identify the social and neural features underlying mating preference's effect on brain/behavior; and explore the role of environmental and social plasticity in generating the observed species-specific differences.

 

[Miles]

Heres another good article, which has some studies on brain usage in cichlids..

http://people.bu.edu/cshumway/Research.html

 

[Miles]

I can't find it, but I will keep looking..

In the article, I remember a specific referance about how a cichlid can 'remember' past battles with specific species.

Example: A convict cichlid will have a confrontation with a larger cichlid, let us use a Green Terror for example, as the aequidens family is not nearly as aggressive as the Cichlasomas.

The convict cichlid claims dominance over the green terror, and continues to chase it around the 'enclosed' area, usually until death occurs. For this example, they removed the green terror, only after the convict cichlid beat the crap out of it.

You isolate the green terror, and nurse it back to full health.. In this time it grows slightly larger, and begins to display more coloration. In good health, you return the green terror back into the convicts territory. Now the green terror has gained an obvious size advantage, as well as increasing some of its 'warning threats' such as green coloration around it's mouth.

The convict, using it's memory sensorage, recalls back to previous encounters with this specific species. It realizes it once dominated this species, and it believes it can continue to dominate this species.. Without hesitation, the Convict will re-engage in battle, with the instinct that it will be the victor of the confrontation.. This idea of pre-dominance will likely cause the convict cichlid to attack without fear, and with complete vorascity, holding nothing back..


I am not saying I agree with this, or I have done this study, this is just what the article stated.. In then went into further detail about non-indegenous species such as the Nile Perch, being released into the rift lakes.

If your evolutionary instinct let you know that the largest fish you ever will encounter, will be a maximum of 30", then what would be your evolutionary instinct when you see a fish at 60"? Will there be a 'sensory' built in to re-act to such a thing, or will the curiousity/territory that is in the cichlids nature, cause them to further investigate? It's obvious to more complex species, such as humans, that this would be a major 'red-flag', but perhaps in more 'simple' species such as cichlid fish, they have no triggers for a 'red-flag' when they come in contact with the 'unknown'..

Just my thoughts

Great thread..

 

[Miles]

My question: How is it supposed to work? Is this info supposed to be carried by DNA?
I have never heard of a genetic research claiming that. Surely your instinct would tell: run from something large with a big mouth that is running towards you, but particular species?!!

Alot of this was I believe accredited to the fact that Cichlids have the highest level of parental care out of all fish, which from the time they are being raised from fry, they are learning as well as using instinctive instructions.. However, there are things the parents will NOT teach the young, that they will do instinctivly.. Such as all of the 'territorial' behaviors that cichlids display when they reach adulthood, such as 'Body shaking, mouth fighting, and circling..'

I have also read Cichlid behavior will be effected if you remove the fry from the parental units too early, as they will not learn how to properly forage for food or understand terrirtories as well.. Not sure how solidified this theory is, but it makes sense to me.

 

[softturtle]

I think human instinct is very numb compared to the rest of the animal kingdom. I beleive we have some but not like an animal. I'm not going to go in to detail.

Example a: A human baby touches the flame to learn what it is (and gets a burn)
Example b: A kitten will not go near the flame (even if it has never encountered fire before in its life)

That could just be personal expeirience but it seems to always go that way.

And no, I do not sit around trying to burn babies an kittens.

 

[softturtle]

A turtle (most egg laying reptiles) never gets any guidance from its mother and most likley never sees its parents. Thats instinct.

 

[docin2004]

Think of evolutionary memory like this. There are two small african cichlids swimming around in lake victoria. All of a sudden a nile perch comes swimming up. One cichlid, through some hard wired brain circuit, realizes that this is a predator and swims away. The other cichlid who was not gifted through inheritance with the particular gene that causes development of the aforementioned brain circuit doesn't recognize said nile perch as a predator, and thus gets eaten. Now which cichlid gets to pass on its genetic material (including this gene that causes development of this particular brain neuronal circuit)? Of course it's the first fish. So this particular gene is selected for in this species. While it's not necessarily "memory" in the way that we conceive "memory," this is what some people's concept of evolutionary memory boils down to. It can be explained by survival of the fittest. This is obviously a gross oversimplification of a difficult and very intricate concept, but it's a good model.

 

[shekes]

Miles, post #5,
there is a mistake in you reasoning. You explained how sensory storage works for a specieman, not how it is passed on to the offspring.

Softturtle, posts #7 & #8:
Humans have to rely more on individual experience rather than on their intincts because they live in an artificial and constantly changing environments that the instinct wouldn't know anything about. The Human so-called Sapiens species adapted to it by relying less on its instinct and growing a huge cerebral cortex instead.
It is a constant disbute in linguistics in how far our language or our abilities to learn a language are inherited.
Also the life in highly civlized conditions is conducive to concentrating on rational or intelligent view of things and we forget about our instincts almost completely on an idivudual basis.

docin2004,
You are right. That is how I suppose it works. The question is: how exact is the information circulating in fishes genes? Can they really distinguish species? The articles posted by Miles do not answer that question to an anyhow satisfactory degree. Most likely, nobody knows that yet and, almost as likely, most of the fish species will be extinct before we get a chance to find out.