Experiment Advice Needed!

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Sweet FishBox

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Apr 26, 2009
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Milwaukie
Be warned, it's loooooooong:

--I am participating in an upper-level college biology class in which we are conducting our own experiments in small groups. My group's goal is to determine whether a Domino Damsel (Dascyllus trimaculatus) could actually inhabit an aquarium without salt. Salt is the ONLY variable we're changing (aside from dextrose, more on that further down), meaning the temperature, pH, waste levels, water level, and so on are all being kept at constant levels as they are found in it's natural habitat.

More details for those of you still reading--We are quite aware of the variance in osomoregulation needs in a hyper- vs hypoosmotic environment. We are using a 10gal glass aquarium, HOB filter, powerhead/filter hybrid for extra water current, heater (78 deg F), hood w/compact flourescent lights, naturally-colored aquarium gravel (neutral, does not affect pH or leech toxins in fresh or salt water), "Instant Ocean" aquarium salt, and marine buffer (pH 8.2).

As a sort of control, two mollies--commonly known as brackish water fish--are also in the tank with the single domino damsel (I know, a larger test pool would give more accurate results, but everybody knows how limited school funding has become, much of the equipment was donated or purchased with our own money). The tank features a permeable mesh divider to separate the domino from the mollies and prevent excessive aggression while allowing the water to move freely between the two zones.

Our procedure thus far, has involved small, incremental dilution of the salt in the tank by removing water from it and replacing it with fresh water (pH 8.2, 78 deg. F, purified via reverse osmosis and deionization). While we would like to take it slower, we do have project deadlines to meet, so we lower the specific gravity by an average of 0.002 each week (ex: after a few weeks of acclimation before making salinity changes, the first water change brought the S.G. from 1.020 to 1.018)

One article in a fish magazine from 1968 (which our instructor just happened to have lying around) had a brief few paragraphs reporting on a japanese man who successfully kept a number of marine fish (and a few inverts.) with freshwater fish with no salt whatsoever for a long period of time. From this very short article, we were able to see that he used grape sugar (dextrose) to supposedly ease the stress of the transition. Therefore, we have added 1cc dextrose in 5% saline solution (per 10 US gal of aquarium water) on the first day we lowered the salinity, .5cc on week 2, and a final .5cc on week 5.

At this time, the specific gravity is 1.006, and all three fish are thriving as far as we can observe externally. When I say that, I mean that even the damselfish is still darting about as though it were back on the reef, displaying toward the mollies in a show of force on occasion, showing perfect coloration, and feeding readily (even the algae on the back of the tank is still alive).

We have had a heck of a time finding any particularly reliable source of information (recent peer-reviewed journals and the like) that deals more directly with the topic. This post is a bit out of frustration and desperation!

What I would like to know from you is:
1. if similar experiments have been done under relatively controlled conditions or with some explaination; if so, please elaborate or provide links!

2. Do you think it's possible? Please elaborate, try to convince us

3. What are some changes you would suggest? If you have any advice, comments, or questions, we'd love to hear from you.

Thank you so much for your time,
the dude with the Sweet Fishbox :D
 
We actually did a reverse test with a freshwater molly and slowly over time and with a controlled drip acclimation each week slowly raised salinity to introduce the molly to a saltwater environment. as well as add ph buffer to slowly raise PH as well. Long story short it worked but only cause mollies can be brought into a salt environment. My concern would be a domino damsel to my knowledge is all salt not even in brackish area's it may be acclimated slowly to brackish but i fear the stress on it will be too much especially with breathing since most saltwater fish absorb oxygen where as freshwater fish breath through there gill's. I fear it will suffocate once the salt becomes to low but will be excited to hear your test results. I would suggest having the test in a bare bottom tank to control detritus and food, also how are you planning on control of temp. ? This is all i can think of now i will search for the article that was written about our test although I think it was removed by the writer.

mr.reef24
 
the fish will die from kidney faliure eventually in low salinity water. thats the end of your expirement.

saltwater fish have evolved for the kidneys to flush out excess salt, and with out the salt in the water the i think the kidneys dont flush regularily(unsure about the cause of the failure but thats what kills them).

also you expierement is flawed becuase your removing all elements from the water not just the salts. your removing calcium, iodine, etc.
theres alot more to ocean water then just NaCL, and fish and coral absorb some elements directly in the water column. i also predict your ph will change with the removal of the ocean mix so i hope you have buffers.

also a molly isnt a very good control since its a different type of fish, which can go from fresh to full saltwater and back given adaquete time, with very lil stress on the fish. there cousin fish the guppy can even survive in water 50% higher in salinity then the ocean.



i personally think this is a rediculous expirement for some one in college, honestly this is no better then science projects i saw in elementry school with plants that have lack of light or fertilizer. a much better one would be how flowrate effects the growth rate of a common goldfish. there have been studies on farm fish about flowrate but not on ornamental ones. with flowrate you can accurately change one variable unlike the removal of just the salt from the ocean water through water changes.
 
honetly this experiment isn't ood for the alotted time period

it's kinda like asking "can you survive in and oven while it's on" and only testing for 4 seconds

the long term health of the fish is more important (to both fish, keeper, and experiment) than whether or not they'll live untill the salinity reaches 1.000


if you can keep them at 1.000 for 3-4 years, THAT'D be something really special
3-4 weeks or even months isn't much.. heck i bet you could keep one in a bowl for a month


the emperiment in and of itself seems fine.. it's just not a long enough time period to determine any long term success
 
THANK YOU! You've all basically confirmed what I personally had believed from the beginning. It is a community college class, with limited resources. I was glad my group wanted to work with fish as I did, but several stubborn ones really wanted to see if this could work; I and one other didn't have much hope for it.

@ mr.reef24:
we used the damselfish exactly for that reason that it is not naturally inclined to enter freshwater systems, "we" wanted to test that kind of adaptability. If you could find that link, I would be most appreciative!

@ sostoudt:
Firstly, we know kidney failure is a possibility, we know that the fish will have to adapt even on the cellular level, but that is the whole point: if it can overcome these obstacles, if it can modify it's behavior and perhaps even it's physiology to a degree that allows it to survive. It happened many times loooong ago, when life first radiated from the sea to fill new ecological niches (or so they say), so there's always room for surprise.

Thank you for pointing out the lack of trace elements, I forgot to mention that; the salt we used to start is supposed to have contained all those necessary, but of course they were lost and diluted along with the salt. It is a community college we're at, and we didn't have the budget to get the proper trace element additives (among other things it would have been nice to have), but yes, we are using a good buffer and have been testing the pH several times each week.
Why we used mollies: "control" perhaps is not quite the right word, but they gave us a benchmark to compare success to--for instance: if the damsel's health appears to deteriorate in any way that is not obviously symptomatic of an identifiable disease or whatever, but the mollies are fine, then we can at least have an idea that it may be the changes in salinity that are affecting it--it doesn't prove it to be the cause by any means--but it could be relevant.

@ BIGgourami: Again, I am in complete agreement that this is a pathetically short amount of time for such an experiment, but we had to do something that would keep us busy for a few months, and half of my group didn't want to do anything else. We had always planned to stop reducing the salinity at the first sign of trouble so we could analyze the situation and decide whether the fish could continue or not, we don't intend to force the fish to continue to try to adapt to fresh water if it appears that he is suffering in any way, that will just have to suffice as a result, as we have no intention of pushing the fish beyond what it can handle (to the best of our knowledge and observation).

It's the final week of classes coming up and we're definitely not going to bring the specific gravity down to 1.000, but we have a nice lab report written up, minus the very final results and conclusions, which I would love to post on this site somewhere if I can find an appropriate place (perhaps someone could suggest such a place, I think it's eight pages long right now), it even has some nifty charts on how the specific gravity changed over the course of the last ten weeks.

Anyways, thank you for your constructive feedback and great patience needed to read all of this!
 
Well atleast with an experiment, any outcome is a success.

If it dies, your hypothosis is correct.
If it dosint, well your hypothosis is incorrect.

Pretty safe to say it's going to die eventually though.

What college do you go to? i want to take a marine biology corse in college, can't quite figure out what school though.
 
I attend CCC, when I'm finished here, I plan to transfer to Oregon State University, which I understand to be one of the better schools in the U.S. for studying marine biology--the school has its own research vessel and works with the Hatfield Marine Science Center (I'm pretty sure it's actually a satellite campus) which is very close to the wonderful Oregon Coast Aquarium! (not to mention the ocean;) My understanding is that OSU is great for those focused more on intertidal study, and the University of Oregon is more geared towards deep-sea research. There seems to be a similar situation between two schools in Hawaii too--> don't take my word for it though, I haven't actually gone to all these schools
 
Sweet FishBox;3173307; said:
@ sostoudt:
It happened many times loooong ago, when life first radiated from the sea to fill new ecological niches (or so they say), so there's always room for surprise.
you forget the point that it happened over millions of years, each generation(the few out of a millions that survive) getting closer to a animal that can adapt to the different conditions,in which the offspring of offspring adapt to the conditions. if evolution happened as fast as you what your doing, out of the millions of fish that jumps out of fish tanks a few would grow legs and lungs and walk away.
even a more relevant reference to salinity
if your expirement had even the slightest possibility of working, salton sea wouldnt look like this
399px-Salton_Sea_Tilapia.jpg


which is basically the same thing except the reverse. the truth is fish have to be born "special" to survive in these different environments they cant change there organs on the fly. it looks like only the tilapia will survive(can still die in huge numbers when environment gets stressful) in this environment, and they were brackish to begin with. if anything would work it would be this lake over thousands of years, but it continually gets more salty so i doubt any fish would be able to survive in it after a point
 
:iagree: He has a good point.

And ya, those hawaii schools look pretty awesome.
 
I just wanted to clarify; I am perfectly aware that evolution happened over millions of years and that this experiment never really had any chance of success (in fact we've ended it already and are allowing the water to return to ideal conditions--conditions considered ideal for good reasons in the natural world). I was just hoping you would keep an open mind and consider evolution vs. adaptation, I know it's a long shot, but you can't always shoot down an idea without experimenting first, and even after having accessed a number of resources consisting of peer-reviewed journals and even simple googling, there was almost no information regarding similar experiments in the past, so we just had to give it a shot. That's all there is to it :chillpill:
 
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