Fish dying for no apparent reason...

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N

Nightfall

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Aug 16, 2009
5
0
0
The Mississippi River
Okay, I'm at a loss. Let me preface this with I'm not a newb, have been doing this quite a while, so bear with me please. I only say this because I've been reading some other forums (not this one) and everyone seems to suggest issues that are total nonsense, and everyone thinks they're gods where fish are concerned. I only post here as you folks seem to be of like mind and don't tend to automatically assume ignorance. I figure if you cats made it here, you tend to know your stuff. On to the problem.

This is my father's tank, trying to help him out. This is what I've found so far...

20 gallon stocked with a reasonable number (read: not overcrowded) expensive feeder fish (mollies, platies, gouramis, a couple of cories, you know typical community tank). A couple of plants, sword variety. Changes water about once a week, no more thank 2 gallons tops, replaces with filtered water that's been obviously dechlorinated. Once a month does his 25% change, vacuming the gravel. As far as recent arrivals within his tank, there's been several, as this is a vicious circle. Buys a new fish, it dies, he takes it back, older one dies as well as the new one, so on so forth. Finally got him to stop adding as they die off.

Water totally normal, no excess nitrites, nitrates, no ammonia present, PH hovering 'round 7. Water temp approx 80f (cranked it there to reduce potential for ick in the gills, also added salt for some reverse osmosis action). Didn't trust his test kits, so took some water to the local mom+pop fish store, tested it there, still shows perfectly fine. Will be taking some to the micro-biology lab next week if there are any fish left and have the researchers look at it...

The fish show no obvious signs of stress, no septicemia, no spots, no dyspnea, no clouding, no lesions, no lateral line issues, no fighting, nothing. If it were up to me, this tank is healthy, clean, and good to go. No lethargy, no top hovering, no bottom hovering, everyone seems fine and playing well together. I am at a loss without actually disecting one (last time this happened in one of my tanks, it turned out to be some variety of liver fluke). Not going there with junk fish. Maybe with expensive discus or salt varieties, but at 99 cents a fish, no way. Otherwise, you can be looking at the tank, everyone doing well, turn your back or go to the restroom, come back and there's a floater or two.

I suppose I'm looking for another set of eyes. Any ideas of things to check for that I might have missed in my infinite knowledge and obvious arrogance? He doesn't even have anything but natural ornaments, no crazy plastic plants or crazy rocks leaching. Though while typing this, something just occured to me. He said he broke the cage for his filter cap. Said that he glued it back together, hmmm, I wonder what kind of glue he used. Either way, any other ideas anyone? Singapore Syndrome still going around? Did I just date myself with that statement? I would hate to have to bleach the tank, but if the whole tank dies off, I may resort to that. I can't very well throw his fish in with my peacock bass and redtail cat.. :)

Well I could, butit would only be fun for me and MY fish!
 
If nothing is showing symptoms and the only thing that's changed is the glue, it's probably the glue... Superglue wouldn't do this, maybe if he used some kind of industrial adhesive or something?...
 
Hi,

I am very sorry to hear your dad's fish losses but I am sure we may be able to pin down some issues that could be rectified as much as possible to prevent repeat of such incidents.

First issue I would like to address is water parameters. Could you please list down the exact water parameters? Reading the part where you mentioned you did not trust his test kit, let's assume you have zero ammonia. What about the nitrite and nitrate? How high are they? What was this test kit used that you did not trust? When you tested it in the store, what test kit did they use? What were the results shown by the test kit of theirs? In normal maintenance routine, what are the water parameters usually?

There is another issue here. I wonder if your father's source uses salt with their fish. Were all his fish from the same source? Assuming the store has indeed used salt believing it can "prevent" the diseases as most stores would have believed, how much salt was used? I can understand that in quarantine procedures, salt can be used to destroy possible flukes, costia, ich, etc but there has to be a limit in which it must be used otherwise there is a potential risk it can produce salt-resistant pathogens which could be prevented if not for the reckless use of salt on the part of the store.

You mentioned the fish "float" as they die. Were they gasping hard or did they simply die quickly? What unusual symptoms have you observed before they died? Most often, a fish that dies would spiral awkwardly to the point it does some labored breathing so I am not sure whether you have noticed such. If not, perhaps they may have been dead for some time before you noticed them.

Another issue which you pointed out is glue. Could you please ask him which glue he used? When did he break the filter cap? When did he attempt to fix it with glue?

The last issue is quarantine. How long does your father quarantine the fish? You never mentioned anything about quarantine. I can understand the older fish dying after a new fish has been introduced so this could easily be transmission of whatever parasite there may be that caused the demise of several of his fish.

This is all I can think of right now but I may try if I can find a few more things I may have missed.

Lupes
 
"First issue I would like to address is water parameters. Could you please list down the exact water parameters? "

I don't have them handy and as this was last week, I can't recall off the top of my head. He had test strips that covered the proverbial whole ball of wax. At the time that I checked (a few minutes after one had died while I was there) everything was borderline perfect. PH right at about 7, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and negligible nitrates. Got similar results from the mom+pop shop. As I live in Memphis, I don't test water going into the tank, especially when it is only a gallon or two, and coming though a filter then hit with dechlor. We have REALLY good water here.

As far as the salt, the little buggers came from our local big box pet store. I'm not sure what their policy on salt use is. I instructed him to put approx 1 table spoon per gallon for a week + the increase in temp to reduce whatever pathogen or parasite that may have invaded. He used sea salt (not for aquariums, food grade - no iodine). Heck I used 4 p/g when last I had an ick infection, no problems presented. Then again, my fish came from a shop, not a big box...

My problem is there do not seem to be any symptoms, as I said in my previous post, no dyspnea (heavy/labored breathing), no lethargy, no spins, no gill issues, no swollen bellies, no spots, nothing I can nail down. Granted, it's easier to see on larger fish. Everything seems to be going as advertised, if you get my meaning. My reference to floating is the belly up, dead fish. It's like they are having a MI/heart attack. Literaly, you'll walk out of the room, 30 minutes later you go back in a there's a floater.


He actually broke the filter cap when he set the tank up initially. It has been setup for about 2 months, if I am not mistaken, he fixed it prior to any fish being introduced.

No quarantine, yes may be a sin, but he doesn't really have the space in his defense, as much as I would prefer it. So I'm sure somewhere he picked up the gonasyphilherpalaids. Not an awful lot I can do about that.

I'm still coming back to the glue at this point, I need to inquire about that one tomorrow. I tried to just give him a sponge to go in place of the cap, but he insisted on fixing it.

I do keep suggesting he pick up some maracin, maybe some erythromiacin, you know, some gram-neg antibacterial just for good measure, but he hasn't. Not my tank, you know? Were it up to me, at this point I would have hit it with Meth-blue, furisone green, erythro, and prolly something for fungus just for good measure... Heck, it could be gram positive though... Without symptoms, it's hard to tell.
 
I'de lean towards a chemical compound in the glue he used. 25% WC per month.. 'n 2 gallons per week roughly... in approx 2 months? the glue would entirely possibly be able to leech out more then whats being replaced by water changes. has the die off been relativly .. steady? or an increased rate? decreased?.. and are you 100% sure you don't have an assassin in the tank?
 
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