Fishless cycle day 12

[Theplecoguy]

Hey guys new to this forum, I’m attempting my first fishless cycle after doing things wrong in the past , and decided not to use feeders and hardy fish and to go ahead and just use pure ammonia

100gallon, eheim 300 watt heater, air stone, fully setup already besides the sump , it’s running 2 canister filters for the time being has an air stone running full power and the turnover rate at the moment is about 350 gph


Day1, filled 100 gallon with water and added prime(even without fish I figured I should dechlorinate)
Day3 started the sea hem stabilty full dose and brought the ammonia up to 4 ppm

Day 7 after dosing stability for a few days I am starting to get levels of nitrite ammonia is not dropping

Day 10 nitrite spikes ammonia is now down to about 1ppm
Day 11 , redose ammonia to 4ppm , nitrite still high
Day 13 ammonia back down to .50ppm Wich is leading me to believe the cycle is working perfectly
I re dossed ammonia at this point bringing it back to 4ppm,
Day 14 ammonia.50, nitrite dropped to 2.0ppm so I decided it was time to test nitrate, I now have between 10-20ppm

So that’s where I stand, I’ve done my own reasearch actually mostly from this site and as well as cross referring with a few other and it has gotten me to this point, I have 5 established tanks and I could have taken media from there and not had to wait, but I wanted to try something new as I enjoy this hobby and I’ve learned pretty much everything because of mistakes unfortunately like the rest of us


My question is, do I redose ammonia back up to 4ppm or do I start my half doses now. And am I completely on the right track with the fishless cycle

 

[pacu mom]

Congratulations on fishless cycling your tank. I'd cut the ammonia dosing to 2ppm at this time. Be really patient at this phase. I found that it took several weeks to colonize the beneficial bacteria that consume the nitrite. Once these bacteria colonized, though, and the nitrites dropped to zero, I never ever had another nitrite reading again. I'd say they are slow growing, but very hardy.

Just be really patient...it took 3 - 4 weeks at this phase for us.

 

[Theplecoguy]

Thank you for your reply, I feel I am right on track, I am in no means in a rush any way what so ever, my nitrite has been spiking the last 3 days as the ammonia has been dropping within 24 hours.


Question one, do I keep half dosing the ammonia until the ammonia and nitrite reach 0 and I have a lot of nitrates

 

[Coryloach]

From my old days of fishless cycling I'll give the long answer version

There is no need to redose ammonia until it is completely converted to nitrites.

When you dose ammonia to 4ppm, the nitrite it gets converted to is way more than 4ppm due to the different molecular mass. High nitrites are toxic to the same bacteria/archaea you are trying to grow in the filters. I always did water changes to keep nitrites readable and way below the max reading point on the liquid test.

When there is heavy nitrification, such as in fishless cycling, the buffering capacity of the water is exhausted, at which point the pH can also drop and stall the cycle. Remedy/prevention is to throw a good big water change here and there and redose ammonia.

pH is actually an important factor playing a role to the type of nitrifiers that are being established so it is best one maintains it stable via some water changes to avoid growing nitrifiers that need to re-adapt after the big water change before adding the fish.

There is no point testing for nitrates because what the test does is convert the nitrates back to nitrates and gives you a full value based on total nitrites. If you have a reading of nitrite, it will be included in your nitrate test, hence you'll always have a reading for nitrates when you have a reading for nitrites.

Dosing of ammonia to 4ppm has become like a strict rule which is actually not based on any science and is harming the cycle, hence some people drag on the cycle for a long time....4ppm is an insane amount of ammonia for the bacs, it is like pouring bleach to them so no need to "maintain" that level. The resulting nitrites from a daily 4ppm ammonia level, if one is not doing water changes, could result into the hundreds of ppm, totally shocking the bacs and stalling the cycle for weeks on end, hence the myth about the "long" nitrite stage.

Personally, I've never used the 4ppm rule. I always dosed way below 3ppm and made sure there is some ammonia reading, regardless how low it is. When on the nitrite stage, I'd just dose to 1ppm and let the nitrite bacs catch up a bit. I've done almost all my fishless cycles in about 3 weeks like that, stocked with fish and never had a problem.

Last, but not least, oxygen is vital to nitrification as the bacs are oxidizing ammonia to nitrite to nitrate and oxygen is used at every stage. That's true for a cycled aquarium as well and even more important when one adds stock and starts feeding the fish.

Good luck.

 

[Theplecoguy]

From my old days of fishless cycling I'll give the long answer version

There is no need to redose ammonia until it is completely converted to nitrites.

When you dose ammonia to 4ppm, the nitrite it gets converted to is way more than 4ppm due to the different molecular mass. High nitrites are toxic to the same bacteria/archaea you are trying to grow in the filters. I always did water changes to keep nitrites readable and way below the max reading point on the liquid test.

When there is heavy nitrification, such as in fishless cycling, the buffering capacity of the water is exhausted, at which point the pH can also drop and stall the cycle. Remedy/prevention is to throw a good big water change here and there and redose ammonia.

pH is actually an important factor playing a role to the type of nitrifiers that are being established so it is best one maintains it stable via some water changes to avoid growing nitrifiers that need to re-adapt after the big water change before adding the fish.

There is no point testing for nitrates because what the test does is convert the nitrates back to nitrates and gives you a full value based on total nitrites. If you have a reading of nitrite, it will be included in your nitrate test, hence you'll always have a reading for nitrates when you have a reading for nitrites.

Dosing of ammonia to 4ppm has become like a strict rule which is actually not based on any science and is harming the cycle, hence some people drag on the cycle for a long time....4ppm is an insane amount of ammonia for the bacs, it is like pouring bleach to them so no need to "maintain" that level. The resulting nitrites from a daily 4ppm ammonia level, if one is not doing water changes, could result into the hundreds of ppm, totally shocking the bacs and stalling the cycle for weeks on end, hence the myth about the "long" nitrite stage.

Personally, I've never used the 4ppm rule. I always dosed way below 3ppm and made sure there is some ammonia reading, regardless how low it is. When on the nitrite stage, I'd just dose to 1ppm and let the nitrite bacs catch up a bit. I've done almost all my fishless cycles in about 3 weeks like that, stocked with fish and never had a problem.

Last, but not least, oxygen is vital to nitrification as the bacs are oxidizing ammonia to nitrite to nitrate and oxygen is used at every stage. That's true for a cycled aquarium as well and even more important when one adds stock and starts feeding the fish.

Good luck.

Coryloach thank you for your prompt reply that has actually combined everything I read into one answer, I was not aware of doing water changes with a fishless cycle, thanks for that tip, I do know that ph plays a factor as well as heat for the bacteria to grow in, I was just hoping I did enough reasearch not to stall/ and drag on the cycle ,



Should my nitrites stay at a readable level for the entire cycle, should I do my water changes to reflect this?

2.should I wait for the ammonia to be at 0 to redose or should I keep it just above at all times.

I just performed a ph test and it came back a 7.5, aquariun temp has been 85 throughout the process so far, I guess I’m going to do a small water change in regards to reading your comment ,

For my first post this place seems to be good , all my prior information came from mfk prior to posting

 

[Coryloach]

Should my nitrites stay at a readable level for the entire cycle, should I do my water changes to reflect this?

Keep it readable and low. Think of nitrification as a continuous process, so it isn't the level that determines it but the presence of the required elements for chemical reaction at any one time.

Once one adds water to a container, on a micro level all sort of things happen, including micro-organism die of and multiplication so ammonia will be actually naturally present at very low levels, you're only boosting the process by the addition of extra stuff.

2.should I wait for the ammonia to be at 0 to redose or should I keep it just above at all times.

Wait until gone down to zero. A gap in re-dosing has little to no effect. The bacs are not sensitive to drop of ammonia, because it's always lurking at enough levels to fuel them. They're more sensitive to lack of oxygen and a drop of pH.

 

[Coryloach]

I guess I’m going to do a small water change in regards to reading your comment

If you don't have a KH test to monitor the buffering capacity, the wise thing to do is a water change here and there to avoid a sudden pH crash.

 

[Coryloach]

I do know that ph plays a factor as well as heat for the bacteria to grow in

Just to elaborate a bit further on that. The tank will cycle at any pH. However, the normal pH that stabilizes in one's tank around 24hrs after a complete water change, is the pH that will stay throughout the fish keeping period of that tank at healthy conditions.

Because the type of nitrifiers are largely determined by pH, it is better to maintain the natural pH of tap water throughout the cycle. The tap water pH is best measured after tap water has been aerated for 24hrs as it may have been loaded with gasses when coming straight out of the tap, affecting its natural pH value.

 

[Supergeorge123]

Stability never worked well for me. Tetra safestart plus is what i use now and that stuff works great. I have heard people say good things about fritzs refrigerated stuff.

 

[Theplecoguy]

Just to elaborate a bit further on that. The tank will cycle at any pH. However, the normal pH that stabilizes in one's tank around 24hrs after a complete water change, is the pH that will stay throughout the fish keeping period of that tank at healthy conditions.

Because the type of nitrifiers are largely determined by pH, it is better to maintain the natural pH of tap water throughout the cycle. The tap water pH is best measured after tap water has been aerated for 24hrs as it may have been loaded with gasses when coming straight out of the tap, affecting its natural pH value.

I do have kh/gh test kit as well as a few master test kits, I currently have 6 tanks up and running, a 30, a 55, 3 other 20 gallons, my feeder tank and my shrimp breeding tank, I am a tad obsessive with my fish keeping a bit , so I try not to leave any areas to chance for the life of my fish