florida pbass info

  • We are currently upgrading MFK. thanks! -neo

DIESELMACK

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Apr 24, 2005
1,884
10
0
53
WorldWide
As most of you know I do all my posting on pbass elsewhere(only because I dedicate the time there and cannot multiple post info) but I have had a ton of questions lately on florida hybrids and alot of people are misinformed so I figured I would post this info I got from paul shafland on the issue and a little history for those interested. They are hybrids only in the sense of local origination not between species;)

Peacock Cichlid (Cichla ocellaris). This species is sometimes called the butterfly peacock and belongs to the genus Cichla, which contains several species that are not well described. This creates confusion among professional fishery biologists. Eigenmann and Allen (1942) lumped several species as synonyms for Cichla ocellaris and C. temensis (Ogilvie 1966). The native range of the genus includes the rivers and lakes of the Amazon regions of Brazil and Bolivia, Peru, Venezuela, and Guyana. Ogilvie (1966a,cool.gif summarized the general life-history information and the efforts to evaluate several species of peacock cichlids for introductions into Florida. Four seemingly different species were imported into Florida from the Orinoco River in Venezuela. All of the fishes were evaluated for introduction as game. Some isolated ponds were stocked with them, but none of the fishes survived, probably because of water temperatures in winter (Paul Shafland, Director, Non-native Fish Research Laboratory, Boca Raton, Florida, personal communication). All species were strictly pisciverous and not selective about size or species of forage fish. In their native range, some species grow to a maximum size of 13.5 kg, whereas other species average 1 to 2 kg. All species were potential sport fishes.

In the 1980's, fingerlings of Cichla ocellaris and C. temensis were imported from different geographical areas in South America (Brazil, Guyana, and Peru) into Florida and cross bred within species to maximize genetic species specific variability (Shafland 1984). Additional peacock cichlids, obtained from Texas, that had originally been obtained from Florida from the earlier stock, were bred with the recent imports. Resulting young were raised in Boca Raton, Florida. Between 1984 and 1986, Dade County canals were stocked with 20,000 peacock cichlid. Spawning began at 27 C. Shafland (1984) stated that studies with control temperatures conclusively revealed the inability of the peacock cichlid to survive water temperatures less than 15 C. After comparing the temperature tolerance found in the literature (Swingle 1966; Guest et al. 1979; Guest and Lyons 1980) with the results of temperature tolerance tests that he had completed earlier for other tropical fish species (Shafland and Piestrak 1982), Shafland (1984) concluded that peacock cichlid are considerably less tolerant of low water temperatures than any other currently established tropical fishes in Florida. Shafland (1984) later stated that the peacock cichlid, because of its lower lethal temperature tolerance of 15 C, could only survive in several major drainage canals in the most southern part of Florida. Temperatures in the North New River Canal near Ft. Lauderdale normally fall below 15.6 C (Anderson 1975). Water temperatures in winter during 1982-83 indicated that the species could survive in canals south of Miami but not in most natural freshwater habitats like the Everglades--not even during mild winters (Shafland 1984, 1989, 1990). Peacock cichlids cannot survive salinities that exceed 18 ppt.

The present established range of the peacock cichlid includes the coastal canals of eastern Dade and Broward counties within 50 km of the east coast of Florida and north to the Palm Beach-Broward county line (Morello 1993). The westward spread extends to the edge of the Everglades Conservation Area, 4.8 to 9.6 km south of the junction of U.S. Highway 27 and Interstate Highway 75 (Alligator Alley), where peacock cichlids have been caught by anglers. Although some fishery biologists are concerned that the peacock cichlid will become established in the Everglades National Park, Shafland (P. Shafland, Director, Non-native Fish Research Laboratory, Boca Raton, Florida, personal communication) believes that the existing range of the species will be reduced to the coastal canals of Dade County as soon as a colder-than-average winter occurs. This species is expanding its range because of its own ability to spread through interconnecting canals, the continued stocking of waters with the fish by the Game and Freshwater Fish Commission, and unofficial releases by anglers into favorite fishing areas. No studies have been conducted to determine the impact on largemouth bass populations that were in the canals before the introduction of the peacock cichlids.

The peacock cichlid, released in 1984 by the Florida Game and Freshwater Fish Commission, was the first legally introduced exotic species into the waters of Florida (Shafland 1993). It has overwintered and reproduced every year since it was introduced. Self-sustaining populations now exist in 530 km of canals, where they are heavily sought after by anglers. Bait and tackle stores are promoting the taking of the species, and special guide services have developed for this species (Tucker 1988). In 1989, a 12-month standard creel census revealed that people fished for this species. The estimated fishing pressure was 31,662 hours on 40 surface hectares of canal (792 h/ha). This provides an estimated 425,000 hours of recreational fishing year and an estimated annual economic worth of $1.4 million (Shafland 1993). Only 2 peacock cichlids/day can be taken, and only one can be more than 43.2 cm in total length. The current state record is a 3.4 kg fish caught by an angler in April 1992. The average size caught by anglers is in the range of 0.5-1.0 kg, but fishes as heavy as 4.5 kg may be taken.

Speckled Pavon (Cichla temensis). This species is sometimes called the speckled peacock. It was collected from the Orinoco River, Venezuela, during earlier efforts to determine the feasibility of introducing it into Florida (Ogilvie 1966a). It grows at a slower rate and may be less prolific than the peacock cichlid and is still protected from harvest in Florida (Chapman 1989). In its native waters, fishes as heavy as 13.6 kg have been taken. This species is not yet listed as established in Florida.
 
1. They are hybrids only in the sense of local origination not between species;)

2. In the 1980's, fingerlings of Cichla ocellaris and C. temensis were imported from different geographical areas in South America (Brazil, Guyana, and Peru) into Florida and cross bred within species to maximize genetic species specific variability (Shafland 1984). Additional peacock cichlids, obtained from Texas, that had originally been obtained from Florida from the earlier stock, were bred with the recent imports.

Scott,
#1 is a FALSE statement. Did you get that from Paul himself??? I would be surprised, as Paul and I have spoke about this very issue before on several occassions.

#2 Proves that #1 is false. There is no mention of Cichla monoculus, but C. ocellaris does not come from Peru. That means that C. ocellaris AND C. monoculus were HYBRIDIZED to form the base of today's Florida Butterfly Peacock Bass. Sorry, but all other ichthyologists within my circle recognize them as strict hybrids.

Just my 2 cents ;)
 
This might make things easier for the folks who's head spins when discussing taxonomic issues:

Brazil - C. ocellaris (north east region), C. monoculus, and C. temensis as known fishes and C. sp. "lower Amazonas," C. sp. "Xingu," and C. sp. "Tocantins/Araguaia" as undescribed fishes.
Bolivia - C. temensis and an undescribed temensis-type fish (C. boliviensis).
Peru - C. monoculus.
Venezuela - C. temensis, C. intermedia, and C. orinocensis (maybe a small population of C. ocellaris, too).
Colombia - C. orinocensis and C. temensis.
Guyana - C. ocellaris and C. temensis (introduced).
Surinam - C. ocellaris.
French Guyana - C. ocellaris.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.
 
Scott,
#1 is a FALSE statement. Did you get that from Paul himself??? I would be surprised, as Paul and I have spoke about this very issue before on several occassions.

#2 Proves that #1 is false. There is no mention of Cichla monoculus, but C. ocellaris does not come from Peru. That means that C. ocellaris AND C. monoculus were HYBRIDIZED to form the base of today's Florida Butterfly Peacock Bass. Sorry, but all other ichthyologists within my circle recognize them as strict hybrids.

Just my 2 cents ;)
I have talked to paul several times on this....and there are ocellaris in peru;) ....:grinyes: got 1st hand pics and fish in a tank :grinyes:

as for your #2...crossbred WITHIN SPECIES...they were bred with the same species but between the peru and Guyana ocellaris. ;) this was rumored to be done to make a more temperature tolerant and sound genepool............but I am no expert and not an expert..just talk to alot of people involved and regurgitate the information to help others interested...so you are probably right
 
Nope, sorry. Not true.

Cichla ocellaris is restricted to the Guyana sheild. Your references are citing information when Cichla monoculus was referred to as C. ocellaris. And any fish in a tank that you did NOT collect yourself, and thus can guarantee actual collection point, will never fly with me or anyone else who is serious about taxonomic authenticity.

Any Cichla collected from Florida is a hybrid....plain and simple.

Even if I gave you the benefit of the doubt and agreed that they were crossed only within species while in captivity...what would happen in a closed canal system when, say, 4 species all live among each other = HYBRIDIZATION my friend. And just think, this mostly all took place 20 some odd years ago....imagine those genes now??? NO THANKS!

All hybrids. Yup.
 
Oh, and just for shibbys and hahas please post the "1st hand pics" of your Peruvian ocellaris and the scientific paper (from the last 10 years or so) that states that Cichla ocellaris occurs in Peru.
 
I have talked to paul several times on this....and there are ocellaris in peru;) ....:grinyes: got 1st hand pics and fish in a tank :grinyes:

as for your #2...crossbred WITHIN SPECIES...they were bred with the same species but between the peru and Guyana ocellaris. ;) this was rumored to be done to make a more temperature tolerant and sound genepool............but I am no expert and not an expert..just talk to alot of people involved and regurgitate the information to help others interested...so you are probably right
I see you added some information to your previous post. I can assure you that I have stated TRUE and FACTUAL information. If anyone has any questions just ask and I'll be able to help you with taxo stuff. I still want those pics, Scott. I am always interested in Cichla from different localities.

Thanks :)
 
Oh, and just for shibbys and hahas please post the "1st hand pics" of your Peruvian ocellaris and the scientific paper (from the last 10 years or so) that states that Cichla ocellaris occurs in Peru.
I will get you pics and locals from larry as he is emailing me pics of all their catches there and I will get you pics of my peru"lake" ocellaris from raul.....no need to get all bunched up and defensive dude...as I said I am no expert and meant it in no other way.....if you feel this thread is worthless have li delete it...truthfully it doesnt bother me....I just have had people emailing me asking about temensis crossed with ocellaris in florida and wanted to try to clarify it a bit.....sorry to disturb you....I will not attempt to pass any info here again and leave it to you. As for your scientific paper...I dont have one so I wont be sending it...I have fish from a local and pics from guys who fish there.....and you said no ocellaris in peru plain and simple...there are 4 lakes with large holds of transplanted ocellaris and several cichla farms in peru that have ocellaris;) that is my last post...sorry to rile up the circle of ichthyologists.
 
I see you added some information to your previous post. I can assure you that I have stated TRUE and FACTUAL information. If anyone has any questions just ask and I'll be able to help you with taxo stuff. I still want those pics, Scott. I am always interested in Cichla from different localities.

Thanks :)
first of all...I did not add anything...not sure what your talking about.as for the pics, just go through the pic thread you'll find severel more dinstiguishable ones...you should be able to pick them out with no problem. Again....I was not trying to be a smartass or question your expertise....just transfering what I was told and still believe...as photos and people who are there...I will believe over paper any day of the week. again sorry for the rant.
 
I will get you pics and locals from larry as he is emailing me pics of all their catches there and I will get you pics of my peru"lake" ocellaris from raul.....no need to get all bunched up and defensive dude...as I said I am no expert and meant it in no other way.....if you feel this thread is worthless have li delete it...truthfully it doesnt bother me....I just have had people emailing me asking about temensis crossed with ocellaris in florida and wanted to try to clarify it a bit.....sorry to disturb you....I will not attempt to pass any info here again and leave it to you. As for your scientific paper...I dont have one so I wont be sending it...I have fish from a local and pics from guys who fish there.....and you said no ocellaris in peru plain and simple...there are 4 lakes with large holds of transplanted ocellaris and several cichla farms in peru that have ocellaris;) that is my last post...sorry to rile up the circle of ichthyologists.
It's very simple....all fish exporters in Peru call all Cichla the Cichla ocellaris. It's a catch-all name from poorly written field guides from many, many years ago. The same is true in Colombia regarding Cichla orinocensis. They are Cichla ocellaris to them. Larry Larson = great fisherman. Don't talk to him about taxonomy when he publishes his own work showing a male and female Cichla temensis senso stricto as two DIFFERENT SPECIES!!! Who does that??? Fishermen do, not scientists. When an advanced hobbyist makes a post about the "right" info they are held to it being "right."

:thumbsup:
 
MonsterFishKeepers.com