Gymno cool-down period

[jjohnwm]

Ah, the best-laid plans of mice, men and aquarists...

I'm currently keeping three species of cichlid: Cichlasoma dimerus, Gymnogeophagus rhabdotus and G.balzanii. These were chosen, in large part, because I had hoped they would be good candidates for outdoor breeding during the short summer season here in Manitoba, Canada. Last summer, I tried only the rhabdotus in an outdoor stock pond, and had some success but not really what I was hoping for. It was more of a grow-out summer than a breeding success.

In preparation for this year's attempt on all three species, I have kept them in a mostly-unheated tank for the winter to rest them and stimulate spawning once warm weather returned. Since our winter is so long, I was concerned that the cool-down/rest period they were experiencing was too long; the temperature in their tank stayed in the high 50's from the end of October until February, at which point I started to worry and began to heat the tank. By the end of the first week of March, the temp was around 65F...too much, too soon. The fishroom/tank temperature is now over 70F and there are gangs of cichlid fry being herded and guarded by all three species.

Activity levels are higher than through the winter, of course, with plenty of posturing and displaying, but nothing that I would call excessive aggression. But we are talking about 1male and 4female balzanii (at least 3 of which are or were carrying fry), 1male and 2female rhabdotus (at least one and probably both with clutches of fry) and 2male/2female dimerus (one spawn)...all in the same tank (8 x 3 feet, lots of wood/rock, some plants). It's tense, for me and for them.

So, basically, I think I screwed up the timing in a big way. I had hoped/intended to put the fish outdoors before breeding began, but I applied heat too early and now I have fry indoors. The 360-gallon tank also contains 5 Megalechis thoracata catfish scarfing up fry whenever they can...probably a good thing. The outdoor stock tanks, as of this morning, are at about 60F and likely won't reach 70F for another couple weeks minimum. Not sure I want to shock the fish by putting them outdoors now; they can obviously handle 60F but dropping it now, at a time of year when it should be rising and breeding is already occurring...I dunno?

I will also mention that my indoor tanks are filled with well water, pH 7.5 and TDS around 300-350ppm, but the outdoor stock tanks are filled mostly with snow melt, pH 7 or slightly less, TDS around 75-100. It would be even softer but for an admixture of well water used to top them up. I already draw roughly 600-700 gallons weekly for my indoor water changes, not really sure my well would supply enough additional water to fill the outdoor tanks also...thus the use of snow melt.

I still think that the judicious application of heat to the indoor over-wintering tank is a good idea, but this coming fall I believe I will heat the tank and keep it heated until perhaps January, then allow it to cool off for a couple months before the temperature rises naturally next spring. This will give the fish at least 3 - 4 months of cool temps, and will hopefully delay breeding until the fish can be put outside next year. For the moment, I will leave the fish indoors for another three weeks (my final trip home from my northern jobsite), then place them outdoors, salvage what fry I can from the indoor tank, and hope breeding continues in a more controlled manner outdoors.

Any thoughts or comments from the cichlid gurus are appreciated. Does this sound like a reasonable course of action?

 

[tlindsey]

Ah, the best-laid plans of mice, men and aquarists...

I'm currently keeping three species of cichlid: Cichlasoma dimerus, Gymnogeophagus rhabdotus and G.balzanii. These were chosen, in large part, because I had hoped they would be good candidates for outdoor breeding during the short summer season here in Manitoba, Canada. Last summer, I tried only the rhabdotus in an outdoor stock pond, and had some success but not really what I was hoping for. It was more of a grow-out summer than a breeding success.

In preparation for this year's attempt on all three species, I have kept them in a mostly-unheated tank for the winter to rest them and stimulate spawning once warm weather returned. Since our winter is so long, I was concerned that the cool-down/rest period they were experiencing was too long; the temperature in their tank stayed in the high 50's from the end of October until February, at which point I started to worry and began to heat the tank. By the end of the first week of March, the temp was around 65F...too much, too soon. The fishroom/tank temperature is now over 70F and there are gangs of cichlid fry being herded and guarded by all three species.

Activity levels are higher than through the winter, of course, with plenty of posturing and displaying, but nothing that I would call excessive aggression. But we are talking about 1male and 4female balzanii (at least 3 of which are or were carrying fry), 1male and 2female rhabdotus (at least one and probably both with clutches of fry) and 2male/2female dimerus (one spawn)...all in the same tank (8 x 3 feet, lots of wood/rock, some plants). It's tense, for me and for them.

So, basically, I think I screwed up the timing in a big way. I had hoped/intended to put the fish outdoors before breeding began, but I applied heat too early and now I have fry indoors. The 360-gallon tank also contains 5 Megalechis thoracata catfish scarfing up fry whenever they can...probably a good thing. The outdoor stock tanks, as of this morning, are at about 60F and likely won't reach 70F for another couple weeks minimum. Not sure I want to shock the fish by putting them outdoors now; they can obviously handle 60F but dropping it now, at a time of year when it should be rising and breeding is already occurring...I dunno?

I will also mention that my indoor tanks are filled with well water, pH 7.5 and TDS around 300-350ppm, but the outdoor stock tanks are filled mostly with snow melt, pH 7 or slightly less, TDS around 75-100. It would be even softer but for an admixture of well water used to top them up. I already draw roughly 600-700 gallons weekly for my indoor water changes, not really sure my well would supply enough additional water to fill the outdoor tanks also...thus the use of snow melt.

I still think that the judicious application of heat to the indoor over-wintering tank is a good idea, but this coming fall I believe I will heat the tank and keep it heated until perhaps January, then allow it to cool off for a couple months before the temperature rises naturally next spring. This will give the fish at least 3 - 4 months of cool temps, and will hopefully delay breeding until the fish can be put outside next year. For the moment, I will leave the fish indoors for another three weeks (my final trip home from my northern jobsite), then place them outdoors, salvage what fry I can from the indoor tank, and hope breeding continues in a more controlled manner outdoors.

Any thoughts or comments from the cichlid gurus are appreciated. Does this sound like a reasonable course of action?

duanes

 

[C. Breeze]

You can add oyster shell for pullets to your vats to bump up your PH if your worried about it dropping too much that will stabilize it around 7.5. Indont tend to worry about the PH much but I do keep a cinder block or oyster shells in each vat to keep them from getting too depleted.

I got wild missioneira and Celido pikes last fall- they were in full color and breeding mode But basically didn’t get to breed and went straight back into winter. Im curios how that will affect this years breeding season and if it will work out or if they’ll take a full year to adapt to the northern hemisphere seasons.

 

[aussieman57]

I've found that it's hard to stop them from breeding. LOL. Another thing I've been pondering about is whether species like G. balzanii really do require "cool down" periods. Now there is no doubt in my mind that wild caught balzanii will require a cool down period. I think most balzanii available now are many generations from wild. Those bred here in FL get little to no cool down period. I'm wondering if these captive bred balzanii would fare just as well in mid 70's temps.

 

[jjohnwm]

...I do keep a cinder block or oyster shells in each vat to keep them from getting too depleted...

Hah! I just literally finished typing that message, remembered the concrete blocks stacked by the barn, and put two each in a couple of the stock tanks. I had always intended to use them for cover in the stock tanks, but originally planned to soak them in a vinegar solution first to neutralize them; then I thought they would help raise my pH a bit as is. Come back in the house and see your message.

I'll test the water before flying out in a couple days, and again before adding fish, to see how much of an effect there is. They've been outside for a couple years so I don't think it will be excessive.

I'm not really worried about the pH change in terms of fish health, but was more wondering if it would affect breeding. I mean, they all breed now that I am not ready; I fully expect them to stop when I want them to go.

 

[jjohnwm]

I've found that it's hard to stop them from breeding. LOL. Another thing I've been pondering about is whether species like G. balzanii really do require "cool down" periods. Now there is no doubt in my mind that wild caught balzanii will require a cool down period. I think most balzanii available now are many generations from wild. Those bred here in FL get little to no cool down period. I'm wondering if these captive bred balzanii would fare just as well in mid 70's temps.

Of the three, the balzanii are the one species that I have always had a hankering to keep; the other two are just sort of along for the ride, since they can handle the same temperature ranges. I must say the dimerus in particular have really surprised and pleased me with the development of colours; I expected the rhabdotus to be stunners (and wasn't disappointed) but the dimerus just look like drab gray fish in many pics. In person, they are actually quite stunning, in a somewhat subdued rather than flashy way.

It's actually a lot easier for me to keep fish like this, that require or at least tolerate seasonal changes. The ambient temperature in my fish room, if left alone, pretty much follows this schedule, so they are a perfect fit for me. So I would like it to work for my sake as well as that of the fish.

 

[duanes]

I suppose with balzani, if you keep a Brazilian strain, a drastic cool down may not be important, and too much may be dangerous
Mine were an F1 Uruguayan strain from Bella Union, so I offered only a slight cooldown to 60'F.
I believe cool downs are more important in species that are found further south.
With species such as Gymnogeophagus quilero, and location sp Paso Pache, and Australoheros, I dropped temps to @ 50'F
They bred constantly throughout 5 months of the summer in WI (same latitude as Toronto) but even in summer, air temps can drop into th high 40s there as late as June, as I was situated next to Lake Michigan, a massive air conditioner, east winds from the 50" lake water can be brisk even in Aug..
My Cichlasoma dimerus, were also from the Bella Union area, and spawned throughout the WI cool summer.
I'm not sure a month or so duration either way, of cool down, is as important as just providing a few months of one.
In the dead of winter, Montevideo Uruguay temps are said to drop to 7"C (44'F) for a short periods.
Not even close to the 20'F "below zero" Milwaukee gets, where my pond would freeze solid 3 ft down, and where my unheated basement would drop into the 40s', where I kept my most southern Gymnos and other Uruguayans. I used in a 500 gal kiddy pool over the winter. for the Australoheros, Crenicichla, and Cichlasoma.

 

[jjohnwm]

Aaaaaand...yet another cold front hits. High temps all week forecast to be in the 40F range...nighttime down to freezing on at least a couple days...water temps in all stock tanks below 40F when I flew out yesterday. Thank goodness I chickened out and left the fish indoors.

The best I can hope for is to bring them outside in the first week of June, and then likely back in by end of September.

 

[jjohnwm]

Quick update on these stock tanks. We have been repeatedly hit with a peculiar weather system referred to as a "Colorado low", which essentially turns our normal cold, rainy spring weather even colder and rainier. We had so many nights dipping down towards freezing, even by the end of May, that I was very thankful I had left the fish indoors.

But now, it's finally begun warming up. I have been home for the past week, with temps in the low 70F range each day and plenty of sun. Nights still fall to 50F or lower, but there is currently only about 6 hours of actual darkness each night, so the stock tanks have been steadily warming up and are now in the high 60F range throughout most of the day.

Two days ago, everybody moved outside. Six stock tanks, one each with C.dimerus (2 pairs, hopefully enough room in a 300gallon tank for them), G.balzanii (1 male, 3 females after one unexplained female death recently), G.rhabdotus (3 adults, believed 1M, 2F), G.rhabdotus fry (6 survivors rescued from the indoor community tank, approaching an inch in length), about a dozen Green Swordtails (just cuz I like 'em), and finally 5 Hoplos (Megalechis thoracatum, 1M, 3F and one who could go either way as to gender).

A big double handful of Hornwort and a dash of Duckweed in each tank has gotten the ball rolling; after only two days, the Hoplo tank is showing signs of a bubble-nest being built. Fingers crossed.

 

[Theos.dad]

Great thread. Do you have any type of filtration or air going to the vats? I have an 800 gal vat going this year currently and am scouring the site for ehat others like to do. My water Temps up to the mid 70s with just a couple hours of direct sunlight in alabama atm. Hornwort, ducked and wisteria have really taken off and kept everything in check thus far