Help! Unknown problem with new fish…

[MarvGT]

Have you tested your water?

Yes

If yes, what is your ammonia?

0

If yes, what is your nitrite?

0

If yes, what is your nitrate?

15-30

If I did not test my water...

1. ...I recognize that I will likely be asked to do a test, and that water tests are critical for solving freshwater health problems.

Do you do water changes?

Yes

What percentage of water do you change?

41-50%

How frequently do you change your water?

Every week

If I do not change my water...

1. ...I recognize that I will likely be recommended to do a water change, and water changes are critical for preventing future freshwater health problems.

Hi all.

I have a problem with my new group of Panamius Panamensis and I’m not sure what it is. I will explain what has happened over the last few days and general info on the tank to see if you can help me diagnose.

So the tank is 33 gallon quarantine tank recently set back up with mature bio media from one of my established tanks. I also added bio balls as a precaution and moved one port acara which was due to be traded in at my LFS. This was set up approximately 3 weeks ago and the parameters of the tank were monitored several times a week. All was well and I was waiting on confirmation on shipment of 6 Panamius Panamensis. They were described as the size of a 10p piece and were bred and raised by my LFS supplier.

I will explain the rest by the days that followed since they arrived at my LFS.

Day 1 - panamensis arrived at my LFS and introduced into a tank with some small convicts and nicarguensis. I turned up with the Port Acara and dropped it off. I had a good look at my new fish and they were very small, very dark with stress colouration but they had only just been put into the tank. There was also a banded leporinus in the tank and was picking on some of the panamensis. The LFS worker said they would move the leporinus to another tank as I was due to collect them tomorrow.

This gave me the opportunity to perform a large w/c 70% and rescaped the tank with some more hiding places. I also added more bio balls and cleaned coarse and fine sponges.

Day 2

Picked up the Panamensis from my LFS and most had some bad fin damage but had lightened in colouration and seemed very active. I made a point of mentioning the damage but took them anyway. I started acclimating the fish by adding a small amount of their new tank water and floating the bag to bring to temp. I did this a couple of times over the next hour or so removing water from the bag and adding new tank water.

My parameters were:
Temp 25.7
Nitrate- 30ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Ammonia - 0ppm
PH - 7.6

Nitrate higher then I would have liked so completed a small w/c of 10%. Note: I can get nitrate as high as 15-30ppm from my tap especially if there has been heavy rain after a long dry spell. Incidentally that had coincided with day 2.

The fish appeared to settle in really quickly, I kept the lights off to help avoid stress but they all were swimming round the tank occupying all levels and seemed very active. I had also dosed with prazipro as a preventative measure.

Day 3

I fed the fish lightly with NLS algaemax and all appeared to eat although there was some left in the bottom of tank.

Parameters:
Temp 25.9
Nitrate- 25ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Ammonia - 0ppm
PH - 7.6

I completed a 40% w/c and topped off with prazipro to keep the correct dose. I also noticed that some of the fish which had suffered the most from torn fins had white marks on them. My initial concern was white spot but after close inspection it looked like white marks from fin damage and it only occurred in the tail fin and nowhere else.

Day 4

I opted not to feed as understand this species does not do well with over feeding. All fish appeared to be really active and not shy at all. So far so good I thought.

Day 5 (today)

Today I noticed that all bar 2 were hiding and not very active. I checked the parameters and it was no real change:

Temp 25.9
Nitrate- 25ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Ammonia - 0ppm
PH - 7.6

I fed fish with algaemax and some flake. All bar maybe two seemed to eat but it then became clear that something was not right with some of them. The largest and most colorful gills were moving rapidly and was not swimming right and spending most of the time hiding. When he did move around he seemed uncoordinated. I will post videos to show the contrast between today and yesterday. Some were showing their dark stress colouration.

So in reaction to this I completed 40% w/c, increased the temp to 26.7, topped off with prazipro, emergency dosed with prime and added aquarium salt. I also adjusted the power heads to provide more oxygen.

So I am at a bit of a loss to understand how they could deteriorate so quickly. Things I have considered so far:

White spot (ich) - although no actual signs of the spots.
Stress from move and tank mates - strangely the most dominant fish is the worsted affected and I have not witnessed any bullying etc
Diet related - haven’t fed much at all so not sure what would have caused this so quickly.
High Nitrates - nitrates are higher then I would like but nitrite and ammonia are 0 and would be surprised if this caused a problem so quickly. (I also checked my LFS parameters out of interest and their nitrate was 50ppm +)
Some sort of parasite - possible but they are not wild caught and I am already treating for parasites.


Any ideas guys?

Thoughts and advice would be greatly appreciated, videos to follow.

Thanks

 

[MarvGT]

Day 3 lights turned on for first time and feeding

. Day 4 very active

Day 5 not active and breathing heavily

Day 5 struggling to swim (note two smaller seem normal)

 

[jjohnwm]

Is it just me or does it seem that your tank has an extremely powerful current throughout? Even in the first few clips, they look as though they are struggling somewhat against a strong current. I don't know anything about this particular species; is it typically found in fast water? If not, too much water movement might be causing stress and overexertion. This isn't
common in aquaria...usually the problem is the reverse, i.e. not enough current...but might be something to consider.

The tail damage just looks like the results of some aggression and doesn't seem like too much of a concern, in my eyes. I think we need a cichlidophile to weigh in here. duanes maybe?

 

[MarvGT]

That’s a good point thank you.

The normal pump I use which has around 5-6 times turnover of the volume of the tank broke so was using a larger one around 8 times turnover. I’ve turned it off for a few hours and will try and get a smaller pump today.

 

[duanes]

I would agree with jjohnwm that it appears they may be struggling with the current at this point.
Maybe the powerhead needs to be throttled back, or maybe the venturi port (if this is the type with a port) could be utilized to provide oxygen, using a venturi usually tempers flow back by about 20% (and makes it slightly less directional).
When this species spawn they seek out ox bows where current is more placid

Your pH seems in the ball park, I live near where this species is found, and when I have measured pH in the my tanks, and where I collect, it usually hovers around 8, even the rain water here in Panama tests at 8.
Your nitrates are quite high, the natural waters here test at 0ppm, using a standard API kit, and my tanks usually hover between 0-5ppm,
but....if they are locally bred in your area, they should be adapted to the local concentration.

 

[duanes]

Just in case the venturi port wasn't clear

The port is to the left, and an air line tube, is placed so it breaks the surface. The action of the impeller draws air in, coming out the efluent as bubbles.
Below a different powerhead with built in venturi

 

[MarvGT]

Thanks for all your help and suggestions everyone, I really appreciate it. A bit of an update for you. This morning I turned off the filter pump to give them a break from the high flow. I had to work but was able to get out on my lunch break and get a pump with a lower flow rate. I installed that soon after and turned the pump back on. Pump was off for approximately 4 hours.

After work I checked on fish and began testing the water parameters again and meanwhile noticed the larger panamensis and another breathing rapidly from the surface and only one fish acting “normal”. This seemed identical to how fish behave with ich (still no spots noticeable) or an ammonia or nitrite spike. Ammonia test came in first, 0. Nitrite test showed a definite colour change. I tested again to make sure and sure enough there was a nitrite spike of around 0.25ppm (the 2nd colour on the API test).

Annoyed at myself for allowing this to happen but also slightly relieved that I at least knew how I could help I completed 2 large water changes, emergency dosed with prime, added more bio balls, added aquarium salt and tested again.
parameters:

Temp 25.7 (lowered the temp back now I know it’s nitrite)
Nitrate- 5-10ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Ammonia - 0ppm
PH - 7.6

After all that I noticed that 3 of the fish are acting normal and are pretty active, 1 wasn’t so active but again appeared quite normal and breathing slowed down, the largest was still up at the top of the tank breathing heavy but managing to move around a bit more and certainly better then he was and the last one was breathing heavy in a hiding place. Fingers crossed I can keep the spike under control and will do water changes everyday to keep on top and will be forgetting feeding for a few days.

Like I said before I’m really annoyed with myself as I thought I had done everything right in setting this tank up. I used plenty of mature media from my other tanks which have been set up for over 5 years, added bio balls as insurance, moved large 5 inch port acara in to the tank for 3 weeks and tested every two days. The panamensis are so small I did not think that 6 of them would increase the bio load once I moved the port acara out but I guess I was wrong. I guess I was a bit too hasty setting it all up but my order came in couple of weeks before I was originally told…

The fact the spike is only 0.25ppm I’m hoping that this is just a mini cycle and not a start of worse to come. Also I’m aware that the problems started before I noticed a nitrite spike so I’m working on two possibilities at the moment.

1. ( I hope it’s this one) Despite testing yesterday I missed a very small spike in nitrite that either didn’t show up on the test or was hard to tell. The flow issue exacerbated the breathing issues the fish faced by stressing them further and wearing them out.

2. The original issue is something other then a nitrite spike, perhaps made worse by the flow but by switching the pumps off for a few hours I triggered a mini cycle. I’m guessing this is more unlikely as pumps would need to be off for more then 4 hours to trigger this particularly as I haven’t fed much recently?

So thanks again for all your suggestions, your posts were really appreciated. Can I do anymore at the moment or is it just a case of w/c as much as possible and carry on testing until the cycle gets back on track? Should I continue adding salt with every w/c? I do not have a Venturi style pump like you suggest Duanes but I have angled toward the surface and it’s creating a decent amount of surface agitation. I think the flow rate is about right now as the healthy fish don’t seem to be having any trouble.

Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I’m really hoping they all pull through.

Thank you

Marv

 

[FJB]

I too hope they continue to improve.
Having turned off the powerhead for a few hours cannot have resulted in a minicycle, as you had other filters with well established biological activity. Reason for change is something else.
Definitely continue monitoring and hopefully everything will be fine. Do not add any fish for a good while after ascertaining everything is working well. Good luck!