High PH, cichlids health risk possibilities?

[ccichc]

Does PH really matter all that much? Let's say, I purchased wild cichlids from an area that naturally has PH around 6.5.. And my tap water is 8.0

What kinds of risks are there?

I've noticed Uraru seem to get HITH fairly easily in high PH, as well as some Pikes.. Does the same thing happen to wild oscars?

Are there any other disease possibilites with low PH fish in high PH water?

 

[tlindsey]

Does PH really matter all that much? Let's say, I purchased wild cichlids from an area that naturally has PH around 6.5.. And my tap water is 8.0

What kinds of risks are there?

I've noticed Uraru seem to get HITH fairly easily in high PH, as well as some Pikes.. Does the same thing happen to wild oscars?

Are there any other disease possibilites with low PH fish in high PH water?

Yes wc Oscar's will be very prone to HITH.
Some SA Cichlids come from Blackwater which is loaded with leaf litter. This causes Tanins which not only helps soften ph but also acts as a antifungal guard.

 

[duanes]

Many bacteria are pH specific, and inhabit narrow pH range environments.
Although certain fish may not show acute effects of being held out of their normal pH range over short term, over the long term being kept out their normal range allows normally non-infective (yet opportunistic) bacteria to become problematic. This can create chronic problems over the long term, like HITH in soft water species held in hard water, non-tannic environments or or other problems for hard water species kept in soft water environments.
When growing bacteria in the lab, growth agar media would often need to be 6.2 +/-0.2 to allow certain species to grow, or a pH of 8.0 +/- 0.5.
Seasonal shifts in pH such as a rainy season will fill natural waters with tannins from leaf litter, which have an anti bacterial effect creating bacterial die off.
In the same way, influx of sea water into rivers creates conditions where hard water species naturally purge parasites, much in the same way adding salt to a tank helps cure ick.
Where I live in Panama, Vieja are often seen in estuaries in brackish, and even full strength sea water. The osmotic pressure from salinity can help remove fresh water parasites, and the cichlids acquire needed iodine while grazing on marine (salt water) algae.

 

[neutrino]

Ime there's not a one size fits all rule, it varies with species. Some of it might relate to conditions in their native habitat, but not always. A species or population might live in a very specific location with specific conditions while close relatives are adapted to a range of habitats and conditions, so they may generally be a fairly adaptable fish, but even this is a case by case thing. Discus for example-- According to Bleher, two types (green and Heckel) live in pretty narrow water conditions, while (what he calls Haraldi) live in a wider range of temperature/ph than most people suspect of discus. By now, many, maybe most, cultivated strains are comfortable in conditions they'd never see in the wild.

In any case, it's a question of range of comfort zone and some species are simply more adaptable than others ime. It's not just about HITH or infections. Some types hardy enough to be healthy with good nutrition and clean water may still live shorter lives at the fringes of their range of tolerance. Some get more tense, more skittish when water's out of their comfort zone. Some do just fine, themselves, in a range of conditions that their eggs or fry can't handle.

Ime you can't generalize, it pays to do some research with unfamiliar fish. Some fish are more adaptable than people think. Then again, you might come to conclusions based on experience with others of a type that don't always work. I've found Heros species to generally be forgiving and adaptable, including wild, but was talking (email) with Jeff Rapps a month or so ago about Inirida and he says he's found them to be an "obligate" black water fish.

 

[Lilyann]

I appreciate this conversation immensely- especially coming off a conversation ( more up against a forum philosophy) that promotes that 90% of fish from LFS can go directly into your tank, regardless of where they came from in the world. Such generalizations make fish appear as if they do not have specialized needs: diet considerations, temperature, compatibility, for example.
This is an aquarium plant forum, they have a lot of specific things to say, particular questions to ask, and details, details, details, about every aspect of plants and plant care, but when it comes to fish they say "Dont worry about fauna" . The assumption of this is based on the agreement that pH is a 90/10 ratio- 90 percent of fish from LFS going directly into you tank, 10% may not make it. Dont bother exploring which one you have.
The point of my issue with this, obviously, is the generalizations. i.e., "Fauna" -- all the same. Plants, however, such generalities would never be tolerated.

Thanks for the insights.

 

[neutrino]

I appreciate this conversation immensely- especially coming off a conversation ( more up against a forum philosophy) that promotes that 90% of fish from LFS can go directly into your tank, regardless of where they came from in the world. Such generalizations make fish appear as if they do not have specialized needs: diet considerations, temperature, compatibility, for example.

Agree. Imo over-generalizations come from overly coarse resolution (alluding to the optical sense of the word). Example, those who sweepingly associate fish from one continent with one set of conditions and fish from another continent with another set of conditions, when the reality is at a finer resolution both continents are big places with a wide range of habitats.

There's a fairly good set (in the algebraic sense) of fish with enough adaptability and a wide enough comfort zone to do well in conditions overlapping fish from differing native conditions, whether due to variability in their present habitat, a wide native range, variable conditions over time that include climate or even geological changes-- for example, the rising and falling water levels in some of the African rift lakes, both during historical and prehistorical time, or that the Amazon River has changed course during its existence and relatively recently within the long history of cichids in the region. Then again, while physiology or genetics might be more adaptable or plastic in some species, intestinal length that changes in some species according to changes in diet, for example, others are more sensitive, more specialized, etc.

 

[ccichc]

There's some real awesome cichlids out there I'd love to obtain, but man PH really does make a difference.. at least from low to high and vise versa

 

[neutrino]

There's some real awesome cichlids out there I'd love to obtain, but man PH really does make a difference.. at least from low to high and vise versa

Same here. Plus I like to be able to move fish between tanks when I need to. Some fish really are more adaptable than people think, but some species I admire also do better in specific conditions. Or some wouldn't be compatible in temperament with what I have. I used to be more interested in maintaining special conditions, did black water tanks for a few years, for example, but at least for now I prefer to keep things simple.

 

[RD.]

There's some real awesome cichlids out there I'd love to obtain, but man PH really does make a difference.. at least from low to high and vise versa

Generally when moving fish from one pH value to another, it's the sudden change in total dissolved solids (TDS) that causes issues such as osmotic shock, not the shift in pH. Going from high TDS values to low TDS values is far more stressful on most fish, vs going from low to high.

So for some fish, especially newly imported wild caught specimens, a sudden change in water values can become a double whammy. Initial stress from a sudden change in TDS that triggers osmotic stress, followed by an onslaught of bacteria that are not typically found in their native habitat.

 

[Judyok]

If the Gh and KH are high you could raise Tangynikans or Malwai Cichids with water straight out of the tap.