HITH? Duck lips? ?

[RD.]

In my mind if what these researchers/students, etc feel was true, and this pathogen is always present, I would think that conditions for an outbreak would often be present in the vast majority of private aquariums, and we would be seeing far greater numbers of columnaris than what we currently are. Far greater.

I have owned many tropical species, including several flowerhorns, yet never once experienced this disease in any of my tanks, over many years of keeping fish. I've also had periods where stress is at a high enough level in some of my fish that it should have presented an opportunity for this pathogen to take hold. I suspect that the same could be said by millions of other hobbyists world-wide. Have we all just been lucky? I doubt it.


Yes, many fish do come from Florida, and Asia, but not all of them. The vast majority of my fish have come from friends, or local breeders - and the bulk of their fish have come from facilities that don't stock fish from Asian ponds. But even if one considered ponds in Florida & Asia, and all the millions of tanks at LFS, and all the millions of highly stressed fish that end up in those tanks, from ponds in Florida and Asia, in conditions that are perfect for this pathogenic bacteria to flourish, columnaris is not a commonly seen disease. Not even remotely close to being as common as say ich. Anyone that has worked or spent some serious time in LFS's over the years will understand - it's not nearly as common as one would expect it to be, if what these researchers say is true. There's a lot that is still unknown about this pathogen, and its various strains.

In the previous thread, Duane, you felt that if this pathogen was present in a fish, that with a proper qt period this pathogen would surface due to the stress by netting/transporting/relocating a fish. And I completely agree.
If I think back over the years, for every case of columnaris reported on MFK, there have probably been a 100+ cases of hexamita/spiro. Maybe more, maybe as high as 1,000+ but the ratio isn't even close. Ditto to Ichthyophthirius. If as these researchers claim columnaris is everywere, then it should be surfacing everywhere, all of the time, over & over again. That, or the majority of fish in the hobby have built up a natural immunity from constant exposure, because I am certainly not seeing this pathogen at the numbers that one would expect. Not in real life, not on MFK, not anywhere.

 

[Ulu]

I had this only once in 45 years that I recognised. I didn't know beans about fish in the 70's and 80's. Mostly just dumb luck back then. Maybe now too, as I didn't sterilize the gravel, plants, wood airstone or anything when these fish went into the patio tank. All my biomedia went in sump too. If it was ever in there it still is somewhere, but the fish and plants and snails appear healthy.

I am reading that F columnaris doesn't survive low temps and low gH.

Low gH and kH is a symptom of our local water. Hi-temps are a symptom of desert life.

When this first presented as saddleback disease, I had quit using tapwater and started using a prepared RO water plus minerals. I was doing so on all my tanks at the time, but only for about 4 mos. That tank had tetras, cories and plecos and and I was treating all 35 gals because I considered every fish and object to be contaminated.

I now think the mineralized water was my big mistake, and exacerbated things, in spite of the kanaplex/Fruan-II treatments. (and others)

The issue stopped with the introduction of bogwood etc, plus salt. I was out of meds and had decided to just let the fish die off, when I took a big hunk of wood I had been soaking and introduced that. I increased the salt level to twice the normal to 1 tblsp per gallon. When the tannins leached off I started adding Kent's BWE and almond leaves. Saddleback vanished

After that every fish survived except 3 juvenile cories that might have been salt-poisoned.

In total I lost 4 emerald cories and 8 serpae. My two best serpae, 2 plecos and 5 cories survive still, in the 55g patio tank with two convicts and one malawi peacock.

This 55g tank shares water with my 125g African tank and a 30g sump. I have been using the crushed shells and aragonite sand to increase hardness, and so far no disease. Minimal salt used, but considerable bogwood and BWE, plus regular water changes. Temps are high, 84F and up to 92F in the outdoor tank. I've been waiting for the surviving fish to infect the Africans, but nothing seen yet.

The Mbuna have bred successfully and I have 8 healthy young cichlids as well. It didn't happen until I increased hardness.

So I think F columnaris is still there in the system, but the salt and tannic acid together suppress it, even in spite of high temps and increasing hardness.

 

[RD.]

Well high temps & hard water are commonly seen in flowerhorn tanks around the world, and again, not seeing this pathogen at the numbers one would expect to see, if it was commonly found in every system. Again, number 1 illness with FH is hex, not columnaris.

I spent a decade supplying LFS's, so I spent a lot of time in them, and a lot of time working with them, one of the local stores very closely - I was there go to guy for cichlids for many years. Their quarantine procedure was ZERO, nothing, nada. Mostly a bunch of clueless kids (Petsmart), and while there were a lot of sick fish seen over the years, some their fault, some not, most was from ich, Neon Tetra disease, etc, but again, columnaris cases seemed rare. This store was a perfect breeding ground, and was ran on a centralized system, with each row of multiple tanks being ran off of the same filtration.

 

[Ulu]

I think the disease came from just one particular LFS, when I bought the last 4 serpae, and I don't go there anymore. He is really a saltwater guy anyhow.

 

[duanes]

The biggest problem with columnaris (beside it being lethal) is that it looks like many other diseases. In some forms, it looks like fungus, some fin rot, and many others, so the idea that it has not been recognized for what it is is highly possible.
It effects everything from trout and salmon in 50"F water, to tropical species.
The video has some really good points.
DEADLIEST DISEASE To Infect These Aquarium Fish inventoryking • 5.7K views

 

[Ulu]

I did not diagnose it correctly until I heard the term "saddleback" disease, and then it all became clear.

BTW, that lady's fish had some serious rot! I've never had a fish that ragged that I let remain in my tank.

 

[Coryloach]

In my mind if what these researchers/students, etc feel was true, and this pathogen is always present, I would think that conditions for an outbreak would often be present in the vast majority of private aquariums, and we would be seeing far greater numbers of columnaris than what we currently are. Far greater.

How do we know we aren't?
Columnaris can go undetected as the typical signs are not guaranteed and they're rather an advanced stage of the disease. Some fish may not last that long to show the typical external damage. If the bacteria is in fish shop water, breeding ponds, etc.. ,it's also in aquariums. Most people change fish like napkins too...Only ground for doubt is that studies on home aquariums are not normally done....giving room for speculation but as far as I am concerned, my fish tanks are full of all type of micro-organisms, good and bad and possibly columnaris too.

There are actually quite a lot of studies done on microbial communities in fresh water, all showing some presence of columnaris and other opportunistic pathogens of the sort.

There's is one more below, not done by students as you call them...

we characterized the bacterial community of aquarium water containing common goldfish (Carassius auratus) and Chinese algae eaters (Gyrinocheilus aymonieri) purchased from seven pet/aquarium shops in Rhode Island and identified the presence of potential pathogens. Our survey identified a total of 30 phyla, the most common being Proteobacteria (52%), Bacteroidetes (18%) and Planctomycetes (6%), with the top four phyla representing >80% of all sequences. Sequences from our water samples were most closely related to eleven bacterial species that have the potential to cause disease in fishes, humans and other species: Coxiella burnetii, Flavobacterium columnare, Legionella birminghamensis, L. pneumophila, Vibrio cholerae, V. mimicus. V. vulnificus, Aeromonas schubertii, A. veronii, A. hydrophila and Plesiomonas shigelloides. Our results, combined with evidence from the literature, suggest aquarium tank water harboring ornamental fish are an understudied source for novel microbial communities and pathogens that pose potential risks to the pet industry, fishes in trade, humans and other species.

Microbial Diversity and Potential Pathogens in Ornamental Fish Aquarium Water

Ornamental fishes are among the most popular and fastest growing categories of pets in the United States (U.S.). The global scope and scale of the ornamental fish trade and growing popularity of pet fish in the U.S. are strong indicators of the myriad ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[RD.]

How do we know we aren't?

I was going off of many years of personal observation, in my tanks, and others that I know. No typical signs or symptoms, or non-typical signs that could have been confused with another. Perhaps myself and friends/associates have been just real lucky all these years? But probably not.

but as far as I am concerned, my fish tanks are full of all type of micro-organisms, good and bad and possibly columnaris too.

I'm not debating the fact that this pathogen is present in many aquariums, and many commercial tanks/vats/ponds etc. Obviously it is, but ALL bodies of water found within ALL aquaculture circles, and ALL public and private aquariums. Really? I don't think so.

we characterized the bacterial community of aquarium water containing common goldfish (Carassius auratus) and Chinese algae eaters (Gyrinocheilus aymonieri) purchased from seven pet/aquarium shops in Rhode Island and identified the presence of potential pathogens.

And that is proof of what exactly? 7 shops out of many millions world-wide, isn't exactly iron clad proof, of anything. C'mon now .....

 

[RD.]

My apologies to the OP, a pointless debate as there will be no definitive conclusion. I think that it's safe to say that this pathogen is at the least, commonly occurring within the aquatic trade, as are many other known pathogens.

Best of luck to you & your fish.

 

[Coryloach]

And that is proof of what exactly? 7 shops out of many millions world-wide, isn't exactly iron clad proof, of anything. C'mon now .....

The unfortunate truth is that latest studies are finding it way more common than we thought. It may in fact be an opportunistic pathogen.

a pointless debate as there will be no definitive conclusion.

There will never be as far as private aquariums are concerned due to lack of such studies so the only data we gather is from studies on various commercial aquaculture settings. Point is columnaris can exist in water without causing an outbreak. That's all I gather. So is mycobacterium that people used to throw the house out for...