Is Anaerobic Bacteria cultivation a common reality?

[Quizcat]

There is significant skepticism from many hobbyists that Anaerobic bacteria can actually be cultivated using various media like Seachem Matrix, DeNitrate, Pond Matrix, as well as many other brands of various media out there. Many in the various forums claim to have tried and failed at it.

My primary focus right now is to cultivate anaerobic bacteria in an Aquaclear 30 HOB filter. I have a bag of Seachem DeNitrate in the filter chamber. I've been told by Seachem that the flow rate must be under 50 GPH in order to cultivate anaerobic bacteria in DeNitrate Media.

I have slowed the flow on my filter by trimming about 1/32" off of the ends of two of the four fins on the impeller. Now, the flow coming out of the chute is at 9 GPH when the flow selector is at it's minimum flow adjustment, and 28 GPH with the flow selector at it's maximum flow adjustment.

Anaerobic bacteria requires an environment that is void of oxygen in order to survive and proliferate. Anaerobic bacteria obtains oxygen from the conversion of Nitrates, and the flow rate must be under 50 GPH to create this environment with Seachem De*Nitrate, which according to Seachem has been specially formulated to cultivate Anaerobic bacteria, provided the flow is under 50 GPH. I have also been told that Pond Matrix presents an even better environment for cultivating anaerobic bacteria, but I just happen to have a bag of DeNitrate. So, my experimentation will rely on DeNitrate for now.

Two Questions...

Both of the adjustments I've been able to achieve are under 50 GPH, but is one of these flow rates superior to the other (9 GPH versus 28 GPH) for cultivating anaerobic bacteria, and why? Seachem doesn't provide this specific guidance.

Regarding my methodology for measuring the flow, is my taking the measurement as water exits the chute a valid method for determining flow, or am I missing some other variable that would make my measurement of the flow rate erroneous?

 

[esoxlucius]

Am i missing something here? How are you going to ensure that the water flowing through your hob filter is totally devoid of oxygen for your anaerobic bacteria to even start to grow? I thought the only place in an aquarium where anaerobic bacteria can flourish is deep in substrate that's never disturbed.

 

[predatorkeeper87]

Am i missing something here? How are you going to ensure that the water flowing through your hob filter is totally devoid of oxygen for your anaerobic bacteria to even start to grow? I thought the only place in an aquarium where anaerobic bacteria can flourish is deep in substrate that's never disturbed.

I want to say that goes back to the flow in the filter, essentially creating a stagnant area for the bacteria to grow, think of it like a swamp on the edge of a pond. Theres little to no flow there, and by contrast probably not much O2.

 

[Doc-Fish]

Do a google scholar search on it, but in a nut shell you dont need special media. Deep medium fine media, best in a collumn say 4' tall minimum. Then trickle water into the top very slowly.

If you want to make it better, then you need good quality non leaching hose pipes, 2 X 100 meter and join them, then do as above.
Dont clean the hoses ever! You want a high BOD in them. But any collum of media deep enough, will go anerobic.

 

[skjl47]

like a swamp

Hello; back in my limnology days (the late 70's) the best I recall is anaerobic zones being in the mud. I have seen the bubbles coming up in small lakes and ponds which I have figured to be methane. ( guess it could be hydrogen sulfide, but am not sure of this.)
There may be open water anaerobic zones in deep, cold water. I have little confidence in this recall however. Likely would also not have much current and be very deep. ( Methane hydrate??)
I think there can be zones of low oxygen for various reasons.

Can this thread be a spin off of the discussion about plants and nitrates of the last few weeks?

My initial brainstorming leads me to think it will be difficult to establish an anaerobic zone in a relatively small filter box.
Correct my thinking for flaws on this. It should depend on a layer of trapped organic material early in the filter box. Decay organisms should use up available oxygen in this area and at some depth pretty much all the O2 will be gone.
That will be the start of the anaerobic zone and if the flow is mild so as to not stir in any O2 will continue.
I guess this area will convert the nitrates by the anaerobs. Perhaps I missed the part about how the waste byproducts of these anaerobic operators are dealt with. What happens to the methane, hydrogen sulfide and other stuff?

From the other thread I gathered a fairly large container is needed??

 

[Doc-Fish]

Hello; back in my limnology days (the late 70's) the best I recall is anaerobic zones being in the mud. I have seen the bubbles coming up in small lakes and ponds which I have figured to be methane. ( guess it could be hydrogen sulfide, but am not sure of this.)
There may be open water anaerobic zones in deep, cold water. I have little confidence in this recall however. Likely would also not have much current and be very deep. ( Methane hydrate??)
I think there can be zones of low oxygen for various reasons.

Can this thread be a spin off of the discussion about plants and nitrates of the last few weeks?

My initial brainstorming leads me to think it will be difficult to establish an anaerobic zone in a relatively small filter box.
Correct my thinking for flaws on this. It should depend on a layer of trapped organic material early in the filter box. Decay organisms should use up available oxygen in this area and at some depth pretty much all the O2 will be gone.
That will be the start of the anaerobic zone and if the flow is mild so as to not stir in any O2 will continue.
I guess this area will convert the nitrates by the anaerobs. Perhaps I missed the part about how the waste byproducts of these anaerobic operators are dealt with. What happens to the methane, hydrogen sulfide and other stuff?

From the other thread I gathered a fairly large container is needed??

Not always, can you explain what your trying to achieve? Anerobic conditions are easy, getting a target product or getting rid of one is another matter. So if you tell us why you want Anerobic conditions i can help.

Better yet do you know what bacteria your aiming for?

I use anerobic conditions to grow bacteria in a 7 cm test tube, but the media is agar. So it depends what you are wanting to do.

 

[Quizcat]

Apparently, within the deep recesses of the pores of the media, those areas are virtually void of oxygen under water to begin with, and those deep pores are the areas that are conducive to cultivating Anaerobic bacteria, unless you disturb the water too much, thereby introducing too much oxygen into the Anaerobic environment. Seachem's recommendation is to keep below 50G GPH flow rate to avoid sabotaging efforts to cultivate anaerobic bacteria by introducing too much oxygen into the environment.

Am i missing something here? How are you going to ensure that the water flowing through your hob filter is totally devoid of oxygen for your anaerobic bacteria to even start to grow? I thought the only place in an aquarium where anaerobic bacteria can flourish is deep in substrate that's never disturbed.

 

[Quizcat]

I can cultivate aerobic bacteria on the surface of the media at almost any flow rate. I am trying to cultivate anaerobic bacteria, which is a strain of bacteria that will convert Nitrates to a harmless gas. Anerobic to Nitrates, Anaerobic to harmless Nitrogen gas. But, Anaerobic bacteria can not survive in an environment with oxygen present. According to Seachem, the flow rate has to be under 50 GPH when using "De*Nitrate" Matrix Media so that oxygen isn't introduced to the environment where you're trying to cultivate anaerobic bacteria in order to convert Nitrates to Nitrogen gas.

Not always, can you explain what your trying to achieve? Anerobic conditions are easy, getting a target product or getting rid of one is another matter. So if you tell us why you want Anerobic conditions i can help.

Better yet do you know what bacteria your aiming for?

I use anerobic conditions to grow bacteria in a 7 cm test tube, but the media is agar. So it depends what you are wanting to do.

 

[Quizcat]

I agree with your analogy to wanting to create a stagnant area, like a swamp...perfectly put!

Seachem also makes "Pond Matrix," which is larger than regular Matrix, and they claim it has specially formulated pores intended as deep voids conducive to cultivating anaerobic bacteria. Because of it's size, and the depth of the pores, they claim that any flow rate is acceptable by design.

Another Idea I had was...

Put some small holes in a 1 liter plastic bottle of Pond Matrix, I could put the bottle of Pond Matrix in the back of the tank, obscure it with some plants for visual aesthetics, and I would possibly be creating the perfect environment for anaerobic bacteria, where there really is no oxygen reaching down into the pores.

But, I'm not an expert...just brainstorming.

I want to say that goes back to the flow in the filter, essentially creating a stagnant area for the bacteria to grow, think of it like a swamp on the edge of a pond. Theres little to no flow there, and by contrast probably not much O2.

 

[Doc-Fish]

I can cultivate aerobic bacteria on the surface of the media at almost any flow rate. I am trying to cultivate anaerobic bacteria, which is a strain of bacteria that will convert Nitrates to a harmless gas. Anerobic to Nitrates, Anaerobic to harmless Nitrogen gas. But, Anaerobic bacteria can not survive in an environment with oxygen present. According to Seachem, the flow rate has to be under 50 GPH when using "De*Nitrate" Matrix Media so that oxygen isn't introduced to the environment where you're trying to cultivate anaerobic bacteria in order to convert Nitrates to Nitrogen gas.

Converting Nitrate to Nitrogen is a bit more complex than that. You need to supply the right 'food' for the right metabolic pathway.

Some reef keepers use Ethanol/Methanol, but you can make CO2 via fermentation. The advantage of feeding the CO2 into the set up this way, the gas isnt dried or cleaned so contains very small amounts of alcohol into the system, this help the bacteria to utilize the Nitrate via a different pathway and produce Nitrogen.

i have tried to be really basic here with this, but if you want detailed info let me know.