keeping rocio species together?

[Hybridfish7]

Would this be viable in say, a 2500 gallon tank? Dream tank, long term goal... would be something like 19 feet long, ofc in my own house and whatnot. Goal is to have a slice of the rio sarstun with functional breeding colonies of all the species in there. Concerned about the two rocio species breeding, but they do occur together naturally... Genetics support them being in the same genus but they are very different fish, I personally think they are more similar behaviorally to herotilapia (not disagreeing with the genetics though, of course).

 

[Backfromthedead]

I had a friend who kept a 55g tank full of jack dempseys in very much the same manner people will jam many african lake cichlids into a tank to disperse aggression. It didnt seem ideal but there were plenty of good looking, healthy JDs in the tank at that time. Wish i had a picture, its the type of tank that would infuriate the people here.

But interestingly enough from everything ive read from and the pics/videos that duanes has posted over the years they seem to congregate like this in their native cenotes, albeit in much larger spaces obviously. But they do seem to concentrate and form a type of loose community for whatever reason, breeding maybe? If i was creating something like youre suggesting, i would just try to replicate the environment you would find in those cenotes.

 

[Hybridfish7]

I had a friend who kept a 55g tank full of jack dempseys in very much the same manner people will jam many african lake cichlids into a tank to disperse aggression. It didnt seem ideal but there were plenty of good looking, healthy JDs in the tank at that time. Wish i had a picture, its the type of tank that would infuriate the people here.

But interestingly enough from everything ive read from and the pics/videos that duanes has posted over the years they seem to congregate like this in their native cenotes, albeit in much larger spaces obviously. But they do seem to concentrate and form a type of loose community for whatever reason, breeding maybe? If i was creating something like youre suggesting, i would just try to replicate the environment you would find in those cenotes.

Not sure you got what I was asking (no offense and thank you for the input), but I am trying to make a Rio sarstun biotope (as mentioned in the original post). Octofasciata is found in rivers throughout southern Mexico, Guatemala, and Belize, outside of the cenotes. In some of those rivers, namely the ones in southern Belize, it shares the rivers with another rocio species, rocio spinosissima. I was wondering if I can recreate this specific biotope and not have the two breed with eachother. A tank of this size would be more than enough to support breeding populations of everything I plan to keep in there (from what I've seen in Florida canals), but the only hurdle I have is the two rocio hybridizing. I am wondering if the two species are different enough from eachother behaviorally to not want to hybridize.

 

[coltiger1975]

Not sure you got what I was asking (no offense and thank you for the input), but I am trying to make a Rio sarstun biotope (as mentioned in the original post). Octofasciata is found in rivers throughout southern Mexico, Guatemala, and Belize, outside of the cenotes. In some of those rivers, namely the ones in southern Belize, it shares the rivers with another rocio species, rocio spinosissima. I was wondering if I can recreate this specific biotope and not have the two breed with eachother. A tank of this size would be more than enough to support breeding populations of everything I plan to keep in there (from what I've seen in Florida canals), but the only hurdle I have is the two rocio hybridizing. I am wondering if the two species are different enough from eachother behaviorally to not want to hybridize.

I think you would be good as long as you have enough options of the opposite sex available. I think they're both different enough to not show interest in breeding. I think creating enough hides and breaking up the territories to avoid conflict. I don't think it is like dealing with cryptoheros species here

 

[Hybridfish7]

I think you would be good as long as you have enough options of the opposite sex available. I think they're both different enough to not show interest in breeding. I think creating enough hides and breaking up the territories to avoid conflict. I don't think it is like dealing with cryptoheros species here

I figured. The ideal stock would look like:
Cryptoheros spilurus/chetumalensis (whatever that population ends up being described as)
Thorichthys aureus
Rocio spinosissima
Rocio octofasciata
Trichromis salvini
Theraps irregularis
Cribroheros robertsoni
Chuco godmanni
Vieja melanura
Maybe mayaheros urophthalmus? I am on the fence because the ones I observed in the Everglades were no where near the max reported size of 20", but at the same time I'm not sure if I want to risk that.
Petenia splendida and thorichthys "helleri" also occur in the river, but the petenia will probably make reproduction hard for the smaller species, and the helleri in that area are allegedly hybrids.
Tank dimensions would be 228 x 60 x 42.25" (19 x 5 x 3.5 feet)

 

[dogofwar]

Rocio spinosissima are really mild and wouldn't do well in that setup. Best in a species tank. Maybe with some dithers.

 

[duanes]

When JDs are the sole or alpha cichlid in their habitat, they do well.
When they share habitat in even many thousands of gallons in nature, they often don't cope as easily.
Take these 2 videos.
In the first one, where JDs are the only cichlid (or at least) the alpha, they do great, the population is large, and not torn up.
Eden2
In the 2nd video (below) they share this Cenote (maybe 10,000 gallons) with uropthalmus, and as you can see, their population is small, and the members of that small number are each quite torn up.
027 zps4b102ffd
Although all the cichlids you mention may be part of that rivers basin, biotopes different cichlids may occupy, may be quite different areas of that river, separate from one another, often blocks or miles apart, occupying separate and certain micro zones.
Even in a 2500 gal tank, this may be quite difficult to achieve.
Where I collect cichlids in the Mamoni river, Andinoacara (found in the river) are almost never netted within areas of where Darienheros are netted.
The Andinoacara found in lower current oxbows under sheltered banks, in deeper holes.

Darienheros are often found in higher current, open areas.

In 2500 gallons you have more options than most aquarists, but
I believe you are being overly optimistic trying to cram in, that entire list, unless you are able to create, any number of flow, depth and other zones.
Some like irregularis, and godmanni, prefer rheophillic zones, some others don't.
Some like salvini, while found in the same watershed, are often aggressive loners and keep many millions of gallons between themselves, and other cichlid species.
The variation in aggressive nature between species in that list, is what I might think of as overly optimistic.
If it were me, I'd shorten the list to 3 maybe 4 species at the most, and create at least maybe 2 distinct flow/current zones, one for rheophiles, one for oxbow types, in order to offer the option these species prefer, keeping them out of each others face, and territorial requirements.

I have never kept the other Rocio, but I'd take heed to dogofwar's assessment.

Just because species are found in the same river, doesn't mean they spend time together in the same habitat.

 

[Hybridfish7]

When JDs are the sole or alpha cichlid in their habitat, they do well.
When they share habitat in even many thousands of gallons in nature, they often don't cope as easily.
Take these 2 videos.
In the first one, where JDs are the only cichlid (or at least) the alpha, they do great, the population is large, and not torn up.
Eden2
In the 2nd video (below) they share this Cenote (maybe 10,000 gallons) with uropthalmus, and as you can see, their population is small, and the members of that small number are each quite torn up.
027 zps4b102ffd
Although all the cichlids you mention may be part of that rivers basin, biotopes different cichlids may occupy, may be quite different areas of that river, separate from one another, often blocks or miles apart, occupying separate and certain micro zones.
Even in a 2500 gal tank, this may be quite difficult to achieve.
Where I collect cichlids in the Mamoni river, Andinoacara (found in the river) are almost never netted within areas of where Darienheros are netted.
The Andinoacara found in lower current oxbows under sheltered banks, in deeper holes.
View attachment 1534254View attachment 1534256
Darienheros are often found in higher current, open areas.
View attachment 1534255View attachment 1534257
In 2500 gallons you have more options than most aquarists, but
I believe you are being overly optimistic trying to cram in, that entire list, unless you are able to create, any number of flow, depth and other zones.
Some like irregularis, and godmanni, prefer rheophillic zones, some others don't.
Some like salvini, while found in the same watershed, are often aggressive loners and keep many millions of gallons between themselves, and other cichlid species.
The variation in aggressive nature between species in that list, is what I might think of as overly optimistic.
If it were me, I'd shorten the list to 3 maybe 4 species at the most, and create at least maybe 2 distinct flow/current zones, one for rheophiles, one for oxbow types, in order to offer the option these species prefer, keeping them out of each others face, and territorial requirements.

I have never kept the other Rocio, but I'd take heed to dogofwar's assessment.

Just because species are found in the same river, doesn't mean they spend time together in the same habitat.

View attachment 1534257

The links aren't working but I have seen what you're talking about before. Perhaps if I scrapped the mayaheros it would be fine. From what I've seen of octofasciata caught in the area (as well as other similar habitats), they are usually pristine when found alongside the likes of trichromis, thorichthys, cribroheros, chuco, and cryptoheros, and while I have yet to see pictures or footage of octofasciata occurring alongside vieja, I have seen footage of cryptoheros congregating in areas with larger vieja, although the latter circumstance is often in deeper areas with faster moving water. I believe this discrepancy can be accommodated for by creating ledges in the tank to serve as shallower areas for the smaller species, or smaller individuals of larger ones.

I considered the fact that these species do not truly overlap with regard to them occurring in different parts of the river like you said, and do take this into account when planning biotopes like this (for example, leaving tomocichla out of a hypothetical rio sucio biotope because the "centerpiece" species of that tank do not occur in that habitat) but it is looking like there is a lot of overlap in this river in particular, hence why I like it so much. I am aware that most rivers tend to only host 1-3 species of cichlid filling various ecological niches, but the unique thing that draws me to this river in particular is the diversity.

While not exactly natural of course, I find that the Florida canals tend to be pretty decent examples of how populations of CA cichlids work out in artificial and relatively small settings, both in the viability of creating long term populations in manufactured habitats, and in the compatibility between various species. Half century old colonies of cichlasoma or amatitlania in 20 x 10 foot spaces sharing said space with native sunfish, etc... I was also able to observe a feral trichromis colony where every rock pile every 3-5 feet had one or two individuals. They shared this space with astronotus, lepomis, and rubricatochromis. Other feral colonies I've observed second hand hosted this density of trichromis on top of rubricatochromis, parachromis, and astatotilapia. One canal I visited hosted amphilophus and (while not CA,) rubricatochromis. The rubricatochromis formed little breeding colonies along the shallow rock ledges, and the larger amphilophus would cruise around at the bottom of the drop off. Smaller amphilophus would also hang around the rocks, a bit further down than the jewel colonies. I feel like this kind of "drop off" setup would be somewhat viable in a tank that size. An overhanging drop off would make use of all the footprint in the tank available. I'll have to make a sketch in a bit. These colonies of smaller feral cichlids would often do their thing in as little as less than a foot of water, so I think in a tank that is only 3.5' tall I can make something to that effect.

I think we tend to underestimate the size of a 2500 gallon tank when we've been desensitized to seeing near square shaped tanks with 2-3 foot long fish. It gets a lot more spacious when the biggest thing in there is 16" and everything else is in the 6-12" range. Especially when more of the dimensional "points" are put into length.

 

[Hybridfish7]

Please disregard how messy the basement is, but I've marked the footprint of this tank out for scale, and placed a vieja sized paper towel in the middle for reference.

 

[ryansmith83]

Having kept spinosissima, I would not advise it. They are relatively shy and quiet. I kept them like dwarf cichlids in small tanks with lots of cover. A 4” spino is a large one. There aren’t many CA I’d try keeping them with in an enclosed system, but that’s my opinion.