From "Bagarius yarelli":
Oddball: Have you tried a powerhead down near the bottom to give him some exercise and help purge his muscles of lactic acid buildup?
PeacockBass: what do you mean, lactic acid build up
Oddball: It's been discussed by several large-species keepers that large riverine species may experience a substance toxicity from being forced into sedentary lifestyles (I'm pretty sure D'mack was in on all or most of this discussion awhile back).
A fairly high number of keepers have experienced inexplicable deaths of large catfish although water parameters tested to be optimal and proper high DO levels were maintained. Something was/is killing these river cats. It was suggested that lactic acidosis (or the fish equivalent) or LA's associated afflictions may be at the root of these mysterious deaths.
Strong active riverine fish maintain a musculature and osmotic chemistry to maintain the body efficiently under conditions of moderate to heavy activity levels within river currents. Once forced to remain at rest (like an aquarium), the muscles can't use up the energy that the body has chemically provided for. These chemicals rapidly lower the body's internal pH levels. It's this low pH acidosis that's fallen under suspicion as causing the deaths of these riverine cats months after the time considered to be the "settling in" time for new additions
PeacockBass: WHere does this information actually come from? I was under the impression lactic acid is a byproduct and an energy source that is utilized and created DURRING excersize... not while being still...
I think this is incorrect. But I want to hear more of what you have to say.
Wikipedia.
this is ofcourse geared more towards humans.
edit- I would also like to point out that these mysterius fishdeaths have only been happening frequently... WHere was this problem 2-6 years ago?
Oddball: Forgot who I was dealing with here. Of course you have to label it incorrect at the onset. And, I figure "frequently" was intended to read 'recently'.
This was all a head-banging session that began with this excerpt from a study on the tagging procedures used on the giant mehkong catfish:
During the 2004 season three out of five Giant Catfish caught in the fishery died after release.The continued mortality of a significant percentage of bagnet-caught Mekong Giant Catfish indicates that the methodology of the buy and release program needs to be reworked.
It has been standard practice for the tag and release program to rely on the bagnet operators to remove fish from the nets, transport them to a holding area, and wait for the tagging team to arrive. Typically, the project uses "local" methods - fish are most often transferred from the net to the bottom of a boat, and then taken to a net pen underneath or to the side of a floating house. The fish receive no medicine and are released immediately after tagging - in the belief that minimizing handling time minimizes stress. Up until now, the project has had no veterinarian.
The exact reason for the death of the Mekong Giant Catfish is unknown, but it seems that capture in the dai net harms the fish. Generally speaking, the size of the fish and its chances of survival are inversely correlated (i.e. the larger the fish, the less likely it is to survive).
Based on comments from Martin Gilbert (field veterinarian, WCS Cambodia), and Jim Robinett and the veterinarian staff of the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago (USA), the damage is likely done before the fish makes it to the tagging team. The problem may be severe lactic acidosis event due to overexertion during capture. If so, these mortalities are related to exertional rhabdomyolysis or "capture myopathy". This explains the slight delay in the actual death of the fish which is a typical feature of capture myopathy.
The presence/absence of lactic acidosis can be tested by sampling the fish's blood for pH, lactic acid, O2, and CO2 levels. Capture myopathy can also be confirmed by histological exam of the skeletal muscle from one of the dead animals. If the cause of death is capture myopathy, then the capture method must be modified and/or the fish need to be given intravenous injections of isotonic fluids and an alkalinising agent such as sodium bicarbonate or sodium acetate as soon as possible post-capture.
Further investigations into university and fisheries studies (I only remember reading a paper from Brown U. I don't remember the other universities whose papers I read) showed that lactic acidosis can also have an onset from organ dysfunctions within the kidneys, liver, and heart.
The over exertion and initial onset of an acidosis event could derive from the fish's initial capture, shipping, tanking, retanking, and shipping to its' final destination. This over-exertion onset may attribute to organ dysfunction which perpetuates the condition until the body's systems shut down.
This is all, of course, conjecture at this point.
PeacockBass: THat is interesting, but I question the fact that it is correct simply because there isnt much more info, atleast I cant find any... If this was the case, Im sure we would see this with tagged sharks, or tagged marlin/swordfish. And we dont. Than again, saltwater fish are much different than fresh, But I would assume even small levels of these acids that are built up durring extreme excersize would lead to a greater problem with a saltwater fish that is acustome to alkilinity.
Another thing I find interesting is how you recomend excersize to help remove the lactic acid.... Excersize will produce more lactic acid, this is proven.
I would suspect the catfish deaths listed in the above article to be due to stress both physical and mental... Also, I am sure the methods these "natives" use when catching these fish and handling them is hardly easy, or safe.
You seem to have the resources available Odd, why dont you test some of these catfishes blood PH and see whats up... Also... I hardly believe the acid build up will remain in the tissue for more than a few days if that. And I am positive the body would work extra hard to correct the PH imballance of the blood plasma.
either way, it is a very interesting concept.
I am not for it... but definatly not completely against it.
And yes, I ment recently. hehe
Oddball: Have you tried a powerhead down near the bottom to give him some exercise and help purge his muscles of lactic acid buildup?
PeacockBass: what do you mean, lactic acid build up
Oddball: It's been discussed by several large-species keepers that large riverine species may experience a substance toxicity from being forced into sedentary lifestyles (I'm pretty sure D'mack was in on all or most of this discussion awhile back).
A fairly high number of keepers have experienced inexplicable deaths of large catfish although water parameters tested to be optimal and proper high DO levels were maintained. Something was/is killing these river cats. It was suggested that lactic acidosis (or the fish equivalent) or LA's associated afflictions may be at the root of these mysterious deaths.
Strong active riverine fish maintain a musculature and osmotic chemistry to maintain the body efficiently under conditions of moderate to heavy activity levels within river currents. Once forced to remain at rest (like an aquarium), the muscles can't use up the energy that the body has chemically provided for. These chemicals rapidly lower the body's internal pH levels. It's this low pH acidosis that's fallen under suspicion as causing the deaths of these riverine cats months after the time considered to be the "settling in" time for new additions
PeacockBass: WHere does this information actually come from? I was under the impression lactic acid is a byproduct and an energy source that is utilized and created DURRING excersize... not while being still...
I think this is incorrect. But I want to hear more of what you have to say.
Wikipedia.
this is ofcourse geared more towards humans.
edit- I would also like to point out that these mysterius fishdeaths have only been happening frequently... WHere was this problem 2-6 years ago?
Oddball: Forgot who I was dealing with here. Of course you have to label it incorrect at the onset. And, I figure "frequently" was intended to read 'recently'.
This was all a head-banging session that began with this excerpt from a study on the tagging procedures used on the giant mehkong catfish:
During the 2004 season three out of five Giant Catfish caught in the fishery died after release.The continued mortality of a significant percentage of bagnet-caught Mekong Giant Catfish indicates that the methodology of the buy and release program needs to be reworked.
It has been standard practice for the tag and release program to rely on the bagnet operators to remove fish from the nets, transport them to a holding area, and wait for the tagging team to arrive. Typically, the project uses "local" methods - fish are most often transferred from the net to the bottom of a boat, and then taken to a net pen underneath or to the side of a floating house. The fish receive no medicine and are released immediately after tagging - in the belief that minimizing handling time minimizes stress. Up until now, the project has had no veterinarian.
The exact reason for the death of the Mekong Giant Catfish is unknown, but it seems that capture in the dai net harms the fish. Generally speaking, the size of the fish and its chances of survival are inversely correlated (i.e. the larger the fish, the less likely it is to survive).
Based on comments from Martin Gilbert (field veterinarian, WCS Cambodia), and Jim Robinett and the veterinarian staff of the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago (USA), the damage is likely done before the fish makes it to the tagging team. The problem may be severe lactic acidosis event due to overexertion during capture. If so, these mortalities are related to exertional rhabdomyolysis or "capture myopathy". This explains the slight delay in the actual death of the fish which is a typical feature of capture myopathy.
The presence/absence of lactic acidosis can be tested by sampling the fish's blood for pH, lactic acid, O2, and CO2 levels. Capture myopathy can also be confirmed by histological exam of the skeletal muscle from one of the dead animals. If the cause of death is capture myopathy, then the capture method must be modified and/or the fish need to be given intravenous injections of isotonic fluids and an alkalinising agent such as sodium bicarbonate or sodium acetate as soon as possible post-capture.
Further investigations into university and fisheries studies (I only remember reading a paper from Brown U. I don't remember the other universities whose papers I read) showed that lactic acidosis can also have an onset from organ dysfunctions within the kidneys, liver, and heart.
The over exertion and initial onset of an acidosis event could derive from the fish's initial capture, shipping, tanking, retanking, and shipping to its' final destination. This over-exertion onset may attribute to organ dysfunction which perpetuates the condition until the body's systems shut down.
This is all, of course, conjecture at this point.
PeacockBass: THat is interesting, but I question the fact that it is correct simply because there isnt much more info, atleast I cant find any... If this was the case, Im sure we would see this with tagged sharks, or tagged marlin/swordfish. And we dont. Than again, saltwater fish are much different than fresh, But I would assume even small levels of these acids that are built up durring extreme excersize would lead to a greater problem with a saltwater fish that is acustome to alkilinity.
Another thing I find interesting is how you recomend excersize to help remove the lactic acid.... Excersize will produce more lactic acid, this is proven.
I would suspect the catfish deaths listed in the above article to be due to stress both physical and mental... Also, I am sure the methods these "natives" use when catching these fish and handling them is hardly easy, or safe.
You seem to have the resources available Odd, why dont you test some of these catfishes blood PH and see whats up... Also... I hardly believe the acid build up will remain in the tissue for more than a few days if that. And I am positive the body would work extra hard to correct the PH imballance of the blood plasma.
either way, it is a very interesting concept.
I am not for it... but definatly not completely against it.
And yes, I ment recently. hehe
