Legal, illegal, bans, licences..help!

[esoxlucius]

I read viktors post recently and it was truly heartbreaking. I'm from the uk where, if i'm not mistaken, we can pretty much have anything simply because no tropical fish would survive our winters should any "accidently", or otherwise, find their way into our waterways.

But in the states it's obviously completely different, even from state to state where the bans, i'm pretty sure, would be way different between alaska and florida for example.

What puzzles me, if i'm reading the situation correctly, is that you cannot have any of the fish on the banned list, unless you have a licence. If you don't have a licence then you cannot have these fish, simple. But here's what gets me. If a fish is banned but you want one, and you apply for a licence, you can, in some cases get a licence for your banned fish. Surely the authorities are going to turn round and say, NO, the fish is banned, end of.

But in some circumstances, for whatever reason, they WILL hand out licences. What mitigating circumstances can there be where the authorities would maybe say no to one guy and then warrant a licence to the next guy that applies?

It's like playing russian roulette. Some of these species totally destroy ecosystems and even with the best will in the world how can you guarantee 100% that your banned fish will never ever ever get into the local water ways. Thing is it's way too late because it's already happened. It seems to me that the authorities are trying to bolt the barn door when all the horses have already escaped.

Looking even further ahead, I mean decades ahead, as temperatures increase and creep ever further north, the fish species will shift too.

Frustrating for the hobbyist for sure, and for the authorities too.

 

[Fat Homer]

From my very limited understanding on the subject, normally these licenses are granted to scientific institutes, universities or zoos where facilities are checked to make sure every precaution and then some are in place to ensure there is next to no chance for any of these fish or their offspring (if they happen to breed) to escape into any local water ways...

I think in some cases, they are even expected to kill said fish when they are done with them in the case of scientific research, to further prevent any possibility of the fish entering local waterways...

So basically speaking for the average fish keeper or even more experienced ones such as Viktor, i’ve often heard it can be next to impossible to get these licenses as the gov’t just doesnt want to take any chances incase anything happens...

 

[TwoHedWlf]

And, very few instances of aquarium fish somehow getting into the wild are due to them accidentally escaping. Most are intentional releases by someone who got bored of them, couldn't house them and decided to set them free in their local lake. The licensing is basically to ensure that you can house them and aren't some dumbass likely to release them rather than properly rehome or euthanize them.

I think koi are probably an exception, most of them here are probably ones that escaped from ponds during floods.

 

[esoxlucius]

It's funny, like I said i'm from the uk and you'd think we'd be pretty safe. But only the other day we took our dog for a run around a local lake. When I was a kid there used to be a good head of roach, bream, perch, pike and the occasional line snapping carp in there. I haven't fished it for years and i've noticed that whenever we walk the dog round the lake there never seems to be anyone else fishing either.

Walking around the edge and occasionally glancing into the clear shallow water I may have found the reason why. Crawling on the lake bed I counted around half a dozen crayfish. I was gobsmacked. They were a good 6" in length. I read years ago in an angling magazine that the signal crayfish was playing havoc with fish stocks in commercial fisheries as they eat all the eggs of the fish.

But that was in the southern fisheries of the uk and at the time we had no problem with them in the north. And yet here I was years and years later after reading that original article, eyeballing them in a lake just down the road from me!

I'm sorely tempted to net a couple out and set up a tank and just observe them.

 

[Ogertron3000]

Here in Australia almost everything is banned. As far as I know the general public can't apply for any license to keep a banned species, there may be something possible for researchers but I'm not sure.
As frustrating as this can be it makes things simpler really as there is no grey area, either something's banned or not.
The penalties are so harsh if you get caught with something illegal and the cost of purchasing a smuggled in banned fish stop the everyday aquariast from taking the risk.
I wish we had access to more species and some of the banned fish shouldn't be but at least we know where we stand.

 

[esoxlucius]

I suppose if you're into the hobby big time and you want all the exotic species from all over the world, and you live in a very warm climate, then you're stuffed.

I think this is where native species can be taken advantage of. We have some lovely natives in the UK for example, but because we don't have any bans, natives get overlooked and the more exotic colorful fish take over with no danger of breaking the law.

Whereas in warmer climates I suppose a lot of hobbyists have no choice, if they want to keep fish, other than to have at least some natives in their collection.

 

[Angelphish]

According to the application form, if you drain your water directly into the sewage, that's acceptable. This actually works perfectly for me because I have a drain just a couple feet outside my house.

Closed-water system is defined as a closed system or systems that treat holding water and sediments sufficiently to ensure against the release of live organisms, including parasites, pathogens and viruses, into the waters of the state. For purposes of this section, municipal treated sewage systems are not considered waters of the state.

Given this, I think if I had a good filtration system, a large enough tank, and a water change system that ran the water through a uv and then into the sewer, I might meet the requirements for the permit and be able to keep rays in Georgia...

One thing I'm not completely clear on is whether they're referring to co-mingling of fish that can breed with the restricted fish, or simply co-mingling of the restricted fish with any other fish at all:

Co-mingling or hybridization of restricted and non-restricted species is prohibited unless authorized by the department. If restricted species are co-mingled or hybridized with non-restricted species, all such animals shall be considered restricted species for the purpose of these regulations. Such co-mingled restricted species that can be individually identified as non-restricted and that can be separated from the restricted species may be exempt from this provision with prior department approval.

 

[ReApEr666]

I suppose if you're into the hobby big time and you want all the exotic species from all over the world, and you live in a very warm climate, then you're stuffed.

I think this is where native species can be taken advantage of. We have some lovely natives in the UK for example, but because we don't have any bans, natives get overlooked and the more exotic colorful fish take over with no danger of breaking the law.

Whereas in warmer climates I suppose a lot of hobbyists have no choice, if they want to keep fish, other than to have at least some natives in their collection.

laws on natives is an even larger "grey area" in the states... Different permits needed there also and nothing but conflicting info available to the general public. One law says u can collect/keep a said fish of legally caught size and another says u cant transport it alive to a different location. What bothers me is you can "harvest" a plethera of wildlife and those laws are very clear on sizes/#'s...try to keep one of those potentially harvested animals alive as a pet and u could face fines/jail time. I agree with it and disagree at the same time.

 

[Itsadeepbluesea]

In the states here it really depends on the state as to whether there is a band list, or an accepted list. A good example is Maine. In Maine there is a list that states what you can have and if it is not on the list you can't have it. This includes some topicals which obviously can't survive our winters. You can make a case to add it to the accepted list, but from what it sounds like, it is a royal pain in the you know what. With natives you can get a permit, but only species that are native to Maine. If you request a US native that is not native to Maine they will deny you, I know this from experience. From my understanding we have some of the most strict fish keeping laws in he country, which can stick at times. Though I know my fish will never make it back to a wild water source, I can understand why as there are others who are less than scrupulous with their fish keeping.

 

[fishhead0103666]

I've always wondered what would happen if a guy got his hands on a couple pairs of banned fish that were only banned because they were endangered in the wild but then he found a way to breed them and started doing it on a large scale. Would he be a special circumstance thus be granted exemption from the law? Would the law be as cold as ever and seize his animals and have them destroyed?