I have a 5 year old female jack dempsey about 5inches big that is looking sick/depressed. This is an ongoing situation which has been occuring for about 2 years. She is extremely lethargic and sits on the floor of the tank all day. Gill movement is very slight and you need to get close to see if she's even still alive. Usually her tail is clamped. There's nothing obviously wrong with her and the fish looks otherwise healthy (no lesions etc.). She isn't really interested much in food and is not eating a great deal, unless I feed frozen bloodworms in which case she'll speed out to get them before any other fish does. I don't want to keep feeding just bloodworms because I'll never get her back on pellet food. I have tried not feeding for a few days etc to tempt her to eat but to no avail, she still eats minimally. I have occasionally seen her trying to flash/scratch up against rocks but can't see anything on her body so not sure what else could be causing this. I did have one fish with internal parasites and treated all the fish in the tank with metronidazole in food about a year ago. I was hoping this would also fix up jack dempsey (who was developing a case of HITH at the time which is fixed now) if she had an internal parasite. I'm not sure what colour the Jack dempseys poo is because she rarely eats and mostly hides. I'm not sure if this is relevant but when I put her in the current tank about 2 years ago she laid eggs for the first time, but has never done that again (I'm not sure if this could be because she's become sick or if I just somehow managed to have egg-laying conditions at the time). From memory she was more active back then. If anyone has any ideas about what could be wrong with her I would love to hear your opinions. Tank is freshwater 400L (100gal), lightly planted, 2yrs old. There are also some fake silk plants (azoo 'real plant' brand) which are a recent addition. I am using a canister filter that does about 150L/hr from memory. The tank is quite deep (2ft), and I have no airstone, so I am not sure if it could be an oxygen issue that is affecting the fish? I've got lights on the tank for about 9 hours a day. Tank mates are 2 bristlenose catfish and 1 geo brasiliensis of similar size. Jack dempsey is the dominant one and 'owns' the tank so to speak, but otherwise they all get on quite well. ammonia, nitrite - 0ppm; nitrate - 5ppm. (API testkit) pH - 7.4 temp - 29 deg C
Lethargic, no appetite and occasional scratching
- Thread starter kaleideon
- Start date
Do you have access to microscopes? I would suggest a skin and gill scrape to determine if flukes are the culprit here. Flukes are quite prevalent but as they remain invisible to naked eyes, they tend to get overlooked especially in cases involving tropical fish. They're more common among carps but they also occur in cichlids.
Your best bet for possible flukes is praziquantel. It's available in petstores in Australia as "Aqua-worm" by Aquarium Science or "Fluke and Tapeworm Tabs" by Aquamaster. Dose 2.5mg per liter. This is one of the gentlest meds for flukes. I am suspecting flukes here as you mentioned bottomsitting, loss of appetite and slight gill movements, all of which tend to be unusual symptoms exhibited by fluke-infested specimens. Luckily, praziquantel may be able to sort out the cestodes (flatworms) as well that could be responsible here.
How did you come up with a conclusion HITH was involved?
Your best bet for possible flukes is praziquantel. It's available in petstores in Australia as "Aqua-worm" by Aquarium Science or "Fluke and Tapeworm Tabs" by Aquamaster. Dose 2.5mg per liter. This is one of the gentlest meds for flukes. I am suspecting flukes here as you mentioned bottomsitting, loss of appetite and slight gill movements, all of which tend to be unusual symptoms exhibited by fluke-infested specimens. Luckily, praziquantel may be able to sort out the cestodes (flatworms) as well that could be responsible here.
How did you come up with a conclusion HITH was involved?
Thanks for the reply Lupin. I failed to mention that I did actually treat her with waterlife's 'Sterazin' probably a year ago to try and fix the flicking problem. No noticable improvement though. However I have no idea what the active ingredient in it is as the company does not disclose this info. After this unsuccess I just left her as I don't like bombarding the fish with all types of meds that may or may not work.
I'd love to do the skin scrape but unforunately have no microscope.. Should I still treat with praziquantel if I can't identify the problem specifically? Would you recommend treating the whole tank (not sure if the catfish are more sensitive) or just the Jack dempsey? I'm not sure if the other fish could be affected too (never seen the Geo flash, but it is INCREDIBLY dopey and you could say also lethargic, though it doesn't sit on the bottom of the tank for hours at a time like the dempsey does).
I assumed internal parasites previously as I've seen this can be linked with HITH and Jack dempsey was starting to develop a small lesion on her head. Other fish in the tank also had white stringy poo and sunken stomachs etc, so I treated them all with metro. The geo still has a sunken stomach and is still alive a year later, so I dont know how effective that was at all.
I'd love to do the skin scrape but unforunately have no microscope.. Should I still treat with praziquantel if I can't identify the problem specifically? Would you recommend treating the whole tank (not sure if the catfish are more sensitive) or just the Jack dempsey? I'm not sure if the other fish could be affected too (never seen the Geo flash, but it is INCREDIBLY dopey and you could say also lethargic, though it doesn't sit on the bottom of the tank for hours at a time like the dempsey does).
I assumed internal parasites previously as I've seen this can be linked with HITH and Jack dempsey was starting to develop a small lesion on her head. Other fish in the tank also had white stringy poo and sunken stomachs etc, so I treated them all with metro. The geo still has a sunken stomach and is still alive a year later, so I dont know how effective that was at all.
Treat the whole tank I think. Even if flukes are rightly suspected, other fish will harbor it eventually. Prazi is the gentlest med and it will not harm your biological filtration. One thing though, some of your fish may not take well to it at first but they eventually should by the second or third round of treatment. Do you have garlic and/or bloodworms just in case? You need them to encourage your fish to eat in case they don't.
How thick is the substrate? Reduce it to 1 cm thick only and boil the rest of your substrate. Your beneficial bacteria would stick to the top layer only anyway where there is oxygen circulation. If your tank is not heavily decorated, then 1 cm thick of gravel is sufficient enough. Vacuum thoroughly every time you make a water change during your treatment course to siphon off all the parasites and their possible eggs and larva.
Don't forget to remove the carbon if your filter has it and dose 2.5 mg per liter of prazi. Here's the dosing schedule.
Day 1 -- remove carbon, perform water change with vacuuming, and add Prazi to tank
Day 2 -- add Prazi
Day 3 -- do nothing
Day 4 -- do nothing
Day 5 -- do nothing
Day 6 -- add Prazi
Day 7 -- add Prazi
Day 8 -- normal partial water change with vacuuming
Day 14 - normal partial water change, then add prazi
Day 21 - normal partial water change, then add prazi
Day 28 - normal partial water change, then add prazi
Day 35 - normal partial water change, add carbon, treatment is complete
Before, the treatment was just 8 day period but it was found out the flukes can survive a little longer so the dosing schedule has been revised this way to completely destroy all flukes throughout the lifecycle.
How thick is the substrate? Reduce it to 1 cm thick only and boil the rest of your substrate. Your beneficial bacteria would stick to the top layer only anyway where there is oxygen circulation. If your tank is not heavily decorated, then 1 cm thick of gravel is sufficient enough. Vacuum thoroughly every time you make a water change during your treatment course to siphon off all the parasites and their possible eggs and larva.
Don't forget to remove the carbon if your filter has it and dose 2.5 mg per liter of prazi. Here's the dosing schedule.
Day 1 -- remove carbon, perform water change with vacuuming, and add Prazi to tank
Day 2 -- add Prazi
Day 3 -- do nothing
Day 4 -- do nothing
Day 5 -- do nothing
Day 6 -- add Prazi
Day 7 -- add Prazi
Day 8 -- normal partial water change with vacuuming
Day 14 - normal partial water change, then add prazi
Day 21 - normal partial water change, then add prazi
Day 28 - normal partial water change, then add prazi
Day 35 - normal partial water change, add carbon, treatment is complete
Before, the treatment was just 8 day period but it was found out the flukes can survive a little longer so the dosing schedule has been revised this way to completely destroy all flukes throughout the lifecycle.
Thanks again Lupin. I've gone and got some aquarium science Aquaworm.
I've got about 7cm of substrate over the whole tank which is quite alot. I don't think I can reduce it as the tank is quite heavily decorated. Will this comprimise the treatment? I wouldn't be able to vacuum thoroughly for the same reasons.
I'm a little confused about the dosing scheme that you gave, when it says to add prazi, will I only add so that the final concentration is 2.5mg/L ? Or do I add an additional 2.5mg/L (= an additional 1000mg for the 400L tank) every time it says to add prazi? Does the prazi get deactivated by anything other than carbon filtration?
I have some questions about the treatment that I'm still not sure about:
I found the dosing info quoted below here http://www.plecofanatics.com/articles/showentry.php?e=318
As my tank is quite large I was thinking of just giving a bath to the affected fish rather than treating the whole tank (also because I have some baby bristlenose catfish in the tank which I can't remove). Do you think this would be effective? I'm not sure how the life cycle of these flukes works (do they have a stage where they would be in the substrate of the tank?) for example.
If I'm going to be doing a bath, some sources have suggested using potassium permanganate for flukes, would this be more effective?
I've got about 7cm of substrate over the whole tank which is quite alot. I don't think I can reduce it as the tank is quite heavily decorated. Will this comprimise the treatment? I wouldn't be able to vacuum thoroughly for the same reasons.
I'm a little confused about the dosing scheme that you gave, when it says to add prazi, will I only add so that the final concentration is 2.5mg/L ? Or do I add an additional 2.5mg/L (= an additional 1000mg for the 400L tank) every time it says to add prazi? Does the prazi get deactivated by anything other than carbon filtration?
I have some questions about the treatment that I'm still not sure about:
I found the dosing info quoted below here http://www.plecofanatics.com/articles/showentry.php?e=318
As my tank is quite large I was thinking of just giving a bath to the affected fish rather than treating the whole tank (also because I have some baby bristlenose catfish in the tank which I can't remove). Do you think this would be effective? I'm not sure how the life cycle of these flukes works (do they have a stage where they would be in the substrate of the tank?) for example.
If I'm going to be doing a bath, some sources have suggested using potassium permanganate for flukes, would this be more effective?
The prazi deactivates after 3 days. You'd have to redose in full after 3 days but if you're doing water changes, redose prazi per water volume replaced. ALWAYS make a water change though before you redose prazi so you can be sure the water is kept consistently clean to permit your fish to recover more easily.
You'll find dosing the whole tank more effective than a bath. A bath cannot cover the whole lifecycle. If you cannot reduce the substrate, prazi cannot seep through all layers of substrate thus shielding the larval forms from being destroyed by prazi. You should reduce the substrate. How heavily decorated is the tank? Does it have plants? Dip the plants in potassium permanganate and repot them I think. I keep my plants in pots to make it easier for me to clean the tanks while barebottom but I keep goldfish myself so I cannot really keep substrate and heavily decorate the tank due to the amount of wastes they expel and accumulate in the tank, same with plecos.
You'll find dosing the whole tank more effective than a bath. A bath cannot cover the whole lifecycle. If you cannot reduce the substrate, prazi cannot seep through all layers of substrate thus shielding the larval forms from being destroyed by prazi. You should reduce the substrate. How heavily decorated is the tank? Does it have plants? Dip the plants in potassium permanganate and repot them I think. I keep my plants in pots to make it easier for me to clean the tanks while barebottom but I keep goldfish myself so I cannot really keep substrate and heavily decorate the tank due to the amount of wastes they expel and accumulate in the tank, same with plecos.
Okay, so I'm up to about day 15 of treatment, and so far there is no improvement or even any signs of it in either fishes temperment. They are still bottomsitting, have gone off their food even worse than before. I thought this was due to the prazi but even on the times during the dosing schedule where there is at least 7 days with no meds they are still reluctant to eat anything at all.
I will be finishing the full treatment, but I'm now questioning whether or not it was flukes to begin with.
Anyone have any ideas about what else could be causing this bottomsitting/lethargic behaviour? I did notice the fish do a bit of a 'shudder' whilst sitting in the same spot the other day. Not sure if this is a less extreme version of flashing or not.
Would greatly appreciate any replies or suggestions.
I will be finishing the full treatment, but I'm now questioning whether or not it was flukes to begin with.
Anyone have any ideas about what else could be causing this bottomsitting/lethargic behaviour? I did notice the fish do a bit of a 'shudder' whilst sitting in the same spot the other day. Not sure if this is a less extreme version of flashing or not.
Would greatly appreciate any replies or suggestions.