LINE BREEDING DISCUSSION

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Mr.Firemouth

Plecostomus
MFK Member
Oct 21, 2006
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st.louis
OK, so many of you breed monsters and many of you discourage hybrids with the exceptions of parrots and flowerhorns. But how many of you line breed Cichlids or other fish in your tanks?

Some of you have line bred fish and don't know it. Discus and Angelfish are 2, guppies are another.

The purpose of linebreeding is to enhance a specific trait, fin size, or color.
I have bred fish for 25 years and always had fun crossing Angels. I also enjoyed creating new colors on guppies and swords. Recently, the last decade has been spent toying with livebearers with my young daughters, showing them how to change the color of the guppies fins and seriously breeding Firemouths for colors.

I have a set of F1 Lac Media Firemouths from Rusty Wessel. 5 fish that recently are breeding. I keep these fish separate from my other stocks because they were fry from wild Firemouths. They pale in color from my linebred FM's.

I decided in 1998 when I set up another 120g that I would start keeping FM's. I had been keeping FM's before that but had recently moved to a new house and was setting up another system. When I went looking for a good set of FM's I couldn't find anything of decent color. They were very grey fish with little color. Even the throats were more orange than red. When I asked why these fish looked so drab I was told that FM's were a common fish indiscriminately bred without concern for color/size just quantity. I decided to see if I could take my experience with breeding and see what would happen if I selectively bred for size and color.

I found that the growout time is about 9 months before I can consider breeding the fry. This made my plans become very committed. The mere fact that it takes one year to get to the next generation to work with and another year to breed that same generation means many tanks and a serious commitment to see things thru.

After getting involved in this breeding program I discovered that the colors were really getting better each year. This was the direct result of using quality foods and only allowing the biggest best colored male to be in the breeding tank with the largest most colorful female. That meant breaking many already formed pair bonds, isolating the male chosen and the female chosen from each other, conditioning them separately for 30 days, and then introducing them to each other to bond as a pair and breed.

The subsequent fry have always been very colorful. At 1" the fry that are not showing dark black margins on the pectoral and anal fins and not showing dark red coloration in the throat are then culled. Out of 100 fry maybe 20 are kept to be grown out to 4"s. At this point I chose 2-3 pairs of the best in that pack and then cull the rest. These final 4 to 6 fish begin the next stage of breeding. I am now 9 years into this and am working on my 6th generation of fish.

In 2004 my hopes for this program have changed as I discovered that there are no available ALBINO FM's. I know hope with every batch that an albino morph/mutation occurs. I am also researching link after link on the genetics of albino-ism. I was watching a friend feed an albino Oscar and asked about the red in the albino form breeding thru strain after strain. This has prompted me to see what an albino FM with a white body and a red belly would look like and if all the red in the fins would also come thru. If so, This would be an exceptional fish.

It must be remembered that linebreeding can cause unwanted deformities and an outcross to a fresh fish from a different stock that is acceptable in size and color will eliminate much of the deformities and strengthen the breeding program. I outcross every 4th generation as a safeguard.

So with this said, how many of you are linebreeding monster fish?

How many of you are working with albinos and could possibly share info?

How many of you are interested in beginning a linebreeding program and document the results as it goes here?
 
Not me, but I read this and I thought it was pretty intresting. GL with the Albinos! :thumbsup:
 
OK, so now I would like to add some more about inbreeding/line breeding.

1. If you are breeding fish from a certain locale, then you want your breeding program to only include fish collected from that locale and not the same species from another location.

Fish that are locale designated should have specific color markings to distinguish them from the rest of the species. Know the markings and take/keep pics of your fish so that they can be more easily compared. Especially when out purchasing. Take a pic with you.

2. Understand that during the duration of the breeding program that culling is imperative. It is absolutely necessary when trying to focus on a specific trait( fin form,size,color) that any fish that doesn't meet the strictest of your personal standards must be eliminated from the program. (sold, traded, fed to a bigger fish
icon_biggrin.gif
)

This includes eliminating an entire brood if necessary. I have had to drop colonies/groups of 2 dozen keepers 1 year into their generational phase of the program because I didn't like the fins or the intensity of the reflective scales. I just had to switch parents of the former generation and begin again. That is why I am nearing a decade of line-breeding with only six generations.

3. Finally outcrossing should be done to a suitable fish(referenced in point #1) when signs of deformity arise or the 4th generation is exceeded. This will safe guard against future deformities and increase fish vigor/health.
Outcrossing should be taken seriously with regards to the standards you have set in choosing the appropriate size, form ,and color. Don't outcross with a weaker fish because it was all that was available.

Keep in mind the terminology of WC(WILD CAUGHT), F1(FIRST GENERATION FRY CAPTIVE RAISED), F2(SECOND GEN CAPTIVE RAISED), F3(THIRD GEN CAPTIVE RAISED), AND TR(TANK RAISED FOR ALL FUTURE GENS) This will clarify any discrepancies on which fish is which.

I strongly suggest a log, pics, and any special notes that can help with problems later.
_________________
 
Well really the way you line breed is you keep breeding he females back with their dads and the males back with their moms. But chosing the best of the best.
 
Mr.Firemouth;833465; said:
OK, so many of you breed monsters and many of you discourage hybrids with the exceptions of parrots and flowerhorns. But how many of you line breed Cichlids or other fish in your tanks?

Some of you have line bred fish and don't know it. Discus and Angelfish are 2, guppies are another.

The purpose of linebreeding is to enhance a specific trait, fin size, or color.
I have bred fish for 25 years and always had fun crossing Angels. I also enjoyed creating new colors on guppies and swords. Recently, the last decade has been spent toying with livebearers with my young daughters, showing them how to change the color of the guppies fins and seriously breeding Firemouths for colors.

I have a set of F1 Lac Media Firemouths from Rusty Wessel. 5 fish that recently are breeding. I keep these fish separate from my other stocks because they were fry from wild Firemouths. They pale in color from my linebred FM's.

I decided in 1998 when I set up another 120g that I would start keeping FM's. I had been keeping FM's before that but had recently moved to a new house and was setting up another system. When I went looking for a good set of FM's I couldn't find anything of decent color. They were very grey fish with little color. Even the throats were more orange than red. When I asked why these fish looked so drab I was told that FM's were a common fish indiscriminately bred without concern for color/size just quantity. I decided to see if I could take my experience with breeding and see what would happen if I selectively bred for size and color.

I found that the growout time is about 9 months before I can consider breeding the fry. This made my plans become very committed. The mere fact that it takes one year to get to the next generation to work with and another year to breed that same generation means many tanks and a serious commitment to see things thru.

After getting involved in this breeding program I discovered that the colors were really getting better each year. This was the direct result of using quality foods and only allowing the biggest best colored male to be in the breeding tank with the largest most colorful female. That meant breaking many already formed pair bonds, isolating the male chosen and the female chosen from each other, conditioning them separately for 30 days, and then introducing them to each other to bond as a pair and breed.

The subsequent fry have always been very colorful. At 1" the fry that are not showing dark black margins on the pectoral and anal fins and not showing dark red coloration in the throat are then culled. Out of 100 fry maybe 20 are kept to be grown out to 4"s. At this point I chose 2-3 pairs of the best in that pack and then cull the rest. These final 4 to 6 fish begin the next stage of breeding. I am now 9 years into this and am working on my 6th generation of fish.

In 2004 my hopes for this program have changed as I discovered that there are no available ALBINO FM's. I know hope with every batch that an albino morph/mutation occurs. I am also researching link after link on the genetics of albino-ism. I was watching a friend feed an albino Oscar and asked about the red in the albino form breeding thru strain after strain. This has prompted me to see what an albino FM with a white body and a red belly would look like and if all the red in the fins would also come thru. If so, This would be an exceptional fish.

It must be remembered that linebreeding can cause unwanted deformities and an outcross to a fresh fish from a different stock that is acceptable in size and color will eliminate much of the deformities and strengthen the breeding program. I outcross every 4th generation as a safeguard.

So with this said, how many of you are linebreeding monster fish?

How many of you are working with albinos and could possibly share info?

How many of you are interested in beginning a linebreeding program and document the results as it goes here?
But yeah very good info
 
:iagree:
 
Actually, Aquaman...breeding parents to offspring is inbreeding. Seperating 2 pairs of fish from an original set of parents and growing them out seperatley to form new offspring, then crossing the cousins to cousins is line breeding.

So,
Parents=FM(FM MALE 0)X FF(FM FEMALE 0)
First gen kids= 2 pairs of FM1 X FF1 groups 1 & 2
Second gen kids from first gen cross= FM2A(GROUP 1) XFF2B(GROUP 2)
Third gen are offspring of cousin relationship(if you will) because they are the offspring of siblings not grandparents. By third gen you cross the cousins together to form the "line" in line-breeding.
Now to fix the traits aquired so that they breed true, you take the 4th gen fry and breed back to the original parent. FM4 XFF0.
Get it?
Confused?
It took several books on how to do this with livebearers before I got good at "fixing" a strain.

HTH, Rich
BTW, maybe someone can explain it easier.
 
id say line breeding is good if your doing it to get certain traits..but not to mix a species.....but i think hybrids are good in some circumstances...like maybe 2 from the same genus
 
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