More Bio Tower ?s

[DB junkie]

I read a post from JohnPTC stating that in order to get a suitable enviroment for Nitrate eating bacteria in a wet dry bio tower the tower height was supposed to equal 7 times the diameter.

Questions.....

Does it need to be exactly 7 times the diameter or just greater than?

Will multiple small chambers yield the same results as one large one?

If the tower is rectangular which side do you use in the equasion or do you average them as if it was square?

What would be the advantages/disadvantages of using 2 dozen 4in diameter towers over one large one? I think 4 in diameter would allow for a much more manageable height than one large one with better flow due to significantly less head. Also allows easy mixture of different kinds of bio materials.

Now assuming there are always drawbacks that come along with advantages what are the disadvantages that I'm missing?

Thoughts....... Opinions...........

Thanks!

 

[DB junkie]

???

Maybe this needs moved to setup/filtration?

 

[Dr Joe]

Does it need to be exactly 7 times the diameter or just greater than?

Not exactly, but with longer chambers you run into aeration problems and bacteria grow concerns. With shorter chambers you run in contact time issues, and running higher water volume (higher turnover rate) doesn't work well here.

Will multiple small chambers yield the same results as one large one?

Pretty much the same here too.

If the tower is rectangular which side do you use in the equasion or do you average them as if it was square?

Calculate volume, if the rectangle is too narrow you run into the above problems again.

What would be the advantages/disadvantages of using 2 dozen 4in diameter towers over one large one?

None, it would be more of a determent

I think 4 in diameter would allow for a much more manageable height than one large one with better flow due to significantly less head. Also allows easy mixture of different kinds of bio materials.

Comparing volume to volume manageability should be the same. (see first statement).

Flow from head loss is the concern of pump size. Size the pump to the job. You can't always make do with what you have around.

Also allows easy mixture of different kinds of bio materials.

Putting media in a 12" pipe would be easier than putting it in a 4" pipe. And once in place it doesn't need frequent attention.

Now assuming there are always drawbacks that come along with advantages what are the disadvantages that I'm missing?

I think we covered them, but if you have a direct build question (ie you want to use 80 4"dia. x 6" long tubes ) we can go on from here.

Research is key to understanding this stuff (just ask john ). Most of this can't be summed up this quickly (I've spent years doing research and study) and I didn't go into detail for that very reason. University Research Studies are a great place for information if you want to understand the idiosyncrasies of this subject.

Dr Joe

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[DB junkie]

I don't have a sump that will allow for 80 of these proposed tubes. I am only willing to dedicate half the sump to these tube/towers which I believe is around 2 dozen.

Was planning on using cheap showerheads plummed into each tube, although sprayer nozzles were also recommended.

Do you aprove of this idea Joe? Do you see any problems I will run into that have NOT been mentioned yet? Any improvements you could offer?

I am not really looking to educate myself in this kinda stuff yet, as I have some rays that are anxious to get into thier new home. So the quicker I can get this idea turned into a running filter the happier they will all be. I'm not looking for explainations, just advice......

 

[zennzzo]

...I am only willing to dedicate half the sump to these tube/towers which I believe is around 2 dozen.

Was planning on using cheap showerheads plummed into each tube, although sprayer nozzles were also recommended.Shower heads tend to be of a fine spray patteren, Great for breaking up the water into large surface area, BUT, the clog factor deems them useless in no time... Prefiltering will help, but I believe you'd need to go 100-200 micron socks, space consuming at best.

Look for some large diameter PVC and go from there as far as the 7 times higher? that is going to make for a very tall filter...

 

[DB junkie]

100 Micron socks will take care of the mechanical BEFORE dropping on to polypile. THEN through the shower heads. I'm not about to go dumping water through my bio that hasn't been properly mechanically filtered. I think they'de be easy enough to access in order to clean......

I have large diameter PVC. 15in to be exact. I'm not about to build a bio tower 9+ feet tall. I was told 7 times will give me what I'm after. If that is a joke then I'll reconsider my plans. But I don't see JohnPTC getting proved wrong very often, if ever.

 

[zennzzo]

100 Micron socks will take care of the mechanical BEFORE dropping on to polypile. THEN through the shower heads. I'm not about to go dumping water through my bio that hasn't been properly mechanically filtered. I think they'de be easy enough to access in order to clean......

I have large diameter PVC. 15in to be exact. I'm not about to build a bio tower 9+ feet tall. I was told 7 times will give me what I'm after. If that is a joke then I'll reconsider my plans. But I don't see JohnPTC getting proved wrong very often, if ever.

Smaller the holes, the more the cleaning you'll be doing, FTW


something is wrong in the calculations...what is the difference if you have a total of 15" round or 1 - 15" pipe, as far as height goes? if that's the case then putting 7-1" bioballs inside a 1.25" PVC one on top of the other, and doing 20 of those, would be the same as a 9' x 15" biotower? See what I mean?

 

[CHOMPERS]

Questions.....

1. Does it need to be exactly 7 times the diameter or just greater than?

2. Will multiple small chambers yield the same results as one large one?

3. If the tower is rectangular which side do you use in the equasion or do you average them as if it was square?

1. I was the person that posted that. It comes from research that was done on ponds in Japan. I no longer have the link unfortunately, but they presented it as the nitrate removal phenomenon began at the 7:1 ratio. Keep in mind that numerology is still important in Asian culture. I'd say it is a ball park figure.

2. Nope. Why it needs to be a single chamber is because the lower part will operate anaerobically. That is how the nitrates are consumed.

3. Average them. That will give you an "area cube".

 

[Dr Joe]

Ok, now that I have a clearer picture of where you are coming from headbang2), (this will take some fine tuning on your part) take your 4" PVC (can you accommodate 6'-7' long pipes?) pipes and stack them full of scrubbies (don't pack them).

I have not detected anaerobic bacteria in 4' and less tubes and only with very low flow rates.

Use the spray heads and account for blow back when the head is in the pipe and the pipe is partially filled. Drop the pressure (flow) back till there is now blow back or air rushing out of the top.

This is flowing into a sump or collection tank and the water needs to be well aerated before returning to the main tank.

Test the outflow vs inflow after the first week. There should be a discernible difference.

Allow 3 weeks for unit to start functioning on a stable level.

You can seed the tubes once every couple of days if you have some populated material, but do all tubes equally.

Dr Joe

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[DB junkie]

THANK YOU CHOMPERS!!!!!! I'm glad you can lend some advice here.

Ok so the 7 to 1 ratio gets tossed out the window and a guy's best bet is to simply utilize a nice wet/dry biotower AND submerged media and call it a day.

I just wanted to know more about the 7-1 ratio.......

So thanks to all who participated..... The idea is officially garbage. Glad I asked before I built!!!

You win Zennzzo!!! NO shower heads......LOL