More BP/KKP Hybrids

[fisheatfish]

Male Vieja synspilum X female kkp:


Grew out two...they're about 18 months old.





Loved the color on that little guy. Had these two males in a 120 gal without any problems till I decided to introduce another female kkp. She paired up with the bigger one and beat up the little guy. He died from the injuries just yesterday...kicking myself.

 

[RD.]

Bummer, the small one was nice.

 

[fisheatfish]

Here's the little one before it faded. I was hoping it wouldn't fade when younger but the result was nice.

 

[koltsixx]

Very cool project you've got goin' bro. Can I ask what happened to the other fry that you only grew out two? I would love to see what second generation would look like. Hopefully the pairing will pay off and the little one won't have died in vain. And maybe it's just me but the bigger one reminds me of a Rose Queen.

 

[~T~]

Love these guys. Makes me miss mine. I'm gonna do this combo again when I live in a permanent place.

Here's mine (think you've seen them before though).

The parents. The mother was one of a kind (IMO).

This one was the only one that had a BP mouth.

This was the only one that I kept that faded. Wish I had a better pic, this phone snap does not do it justice.

I really liked the shape of this one.

Big boy

 

[fisheatfish]

Very cool project you've got goin' bro. Can I ask what happened to the other fry that you only grew out two? I would love to see what second generation would look like. Hopefully the pairing will pay off and the little one won't have died in vain. And maybe it's just me but the bigger one reminds me of a Rose Queen.

Most of other fry I culled and some I gave away. Only kept these two only to see how they'd turn out...coming from the same batch, I found it interesting how different they were. Mom being a kkp, I doubt these two would be fertile and I didn't grow out any females to cross back to dad. I threw in the female in hopes that the two males would color up even more and perhaps develop a nuchal hump. The little one at one point had a little bump developing but went away in time.

The bigger reminds me of a rose queen as well.

 

[koltsixx]

Most of other fry I culled and some I gave away. Only kept these two only to see how they'd turn out...coming from the same batch, I found it interesting how different they were. Mom being a kkp, I doubt these two would be fertile and I didn't grow out any females to cross back to dad. I threw in the female in hopes that the two males would color up even more and perhaps develop a nuchal hump. The little one at one point had a little bump developing but went away in time.

The bigger reminds me of a rose queen as well.

Yeah in general BP males are predominantly infertile but hey you never know. Also with such limited documentation on Hybrid breeding due to the secrecy of many experienced FH breeders and lack of novice attempts documented, I'm not sure what adding some naturally occurring blood would due to a BP's offspring's reproductive viability. Since many accept that BP males are in general sterile most probably in the interest of saving time focus on female offspring from such breeding attempts. Automatically culling, re-homing or just never trying to breed the male offspring. As such there maybe opportunities missed and with no attempt based on the prevailing assumption no documentation produced since there might've been a lack of attempts.

By the way my apologies for not responding sooner but my recent interest had me going over what things and trying to wrap my head around the theories I had done my best to read and understand on hybridization. The following is based on my probably limited understanding of what I read and put in what I think is a simplified manner so please take it with a grain of salt as it may be incorrect.

Closely related species evolve from a single Ancestral population. As the environment changed and caused particular groups of said original Ancestral species to be separated or otherwise need to adapt to their changing environment to maximize their chances or surviving they evolved differently from each other. The necessary traits needed for an area or to fill a certain niche where different. So over time the original Ancestral Species would mutate. This new mutation making certain traits dominant over others etc maybe even going so far as to get rid of certain alleles all together. The process involving the making of proteins in certain amounts and broken genes etc is lengthy and not needed here.

So now we have two different species that evolved from a single ancestral species. Due to how closely related they are it's possible for the two to be bred together and to produce offspring. However the changes in alleles at multiple loci could in many cases could/would make the offspring sterile. However with access to the Ancestral Species something not often available in nature, it's possible to make viable offspring because they would contain all the original genetic makeup of the two new species. So reintroducing what maybe one of the Ancestral species as you may have done with the Synspila may have a positive effect on the reproductive viability of their offspring. As in perhaps some of the males or more of the males then usual may be fertile. Again that's if my understanding the Dubzhansky-Muller Model among other theories is correct.

I'm actually thinking of making a thread about this kind of stuff. Hopefully it might draw attention of more knowledgeable hobbyists and if not maybe spark an interest in someone who can grasp a better understanding of this then I have. And hopefully then they'll share that knowledge on MFK.

 

[fisheatfish]

Yeah in general BP males are predominantly infertile but hey you never know. Also with such limited documentation on Hybrid breeding due to the secrecy of many experienced FH breeders and lack of novice attempts documented, I'm not sure what adding some naturally occurring blood would due to a BP's offspring's reproductive viability. Since many accept that BP males are in general sterile most probably in the interest of saving time focus on female offspring from such breeding attempts. Automatically culling, re-homing or just never trying to breed the male offspring. As such there maybe opportunities missed and with no attempt based on the prevailing assumption no documentation produced since there might've been a lack of attempts.

By the way my apologies for not responding sooner but my recent interest had me going over what things and trying to wrap my head around the theories I had done my best to read and understand on hybridization. The following is based on my probably limited understanding of what I read and put in what I think is a simplified manner so please take it with a grain of salt as it may be incorrect.

Closely related species evolve from a single Ancestral population. As the environment changed and caused particular groups of said original Ancestral species to be separated or otherwise need to adapt to their changing environment to maximize their chances or surviving they evolved differently from each other. The necessary traits needed for an area or to fill a certain niche where different. So over time the original Ancestral Species would mutate. This new mutation making certain traits dominant over others etc maybe even going so far as to get rid of certain alleles all together. The process involving the making of proteins in certain amounts and broken genes etc is lengthy and not needed here.

So now we have two different species that evolved from a single ancestral species. Due to how closely related they are it's possible for the two to be bred together and to produce offspring. However the changes in alleles at multiple loci could in many cases could/would make the offspring sterile. However with access to the Ancestral Species something not often available in nature, it's possible to make viable offspring because they would contain all the original genetic makeup of the two new species. So reintroducing what maybe one of the Ancestral species as you may have done with the Synspila may have a positive effect on the reproductive viability of their offspring. As in perhaps some of the males or more of the males then usual may be fertile. Again that's if my understanding the Dubzhansky-Muller Model among other theories is correct.

I'm actually thinking of making a thread about this kind of stuff. Hopefully it might draw attention of more knowledgeable hobbyists and if not maybe spark an interest in someone who can grasp a better understanding of this then I have. And hopefully then they'll share that knowledge on MFK.

Let's see what becomes of this pairing, shall we? Their first spawn individually and as a pair. I have my doubts of this male's fertility but I'm intrigued by your theory in the possibility on the "reproductive viability" of the offspring I've produced. Fingers crossed, they spawned today.

Always enjoyable for me to sit back and watch a live spawn. My apologies for the filthy, fuzzy driftwood I'm soaking for another tank.

Not a bad size clutch considering her first time:

 

[BLUECAN]

have a friend here who has a couple fertile rose queen males, good luck!

 

[koltsixx]

Let's see what becomes of this pairing, shall we? Their first spawn individually and as a pair. I have my doubts of this male's fertility but I'm intrigued by your theory in the possibility on the "reproductive viability" of the offspring I've produced. Fingers crossed, they spawned today.

Always enjoyable for me to sit back and watch a live spawn. My apologies for the filthy, fuzzy driftwood I'm soaking for another tank.

Not a bad size clutch considering her first time:

No worries on the wood, you should see some of mine. I had to take a knife to them as I let Black Hair Algae really get out of control and carve it off. I hope I'm right and you get some viable young. It would make for some interesting data as well since we'd know it's possible for such a hybrid to be fertile making the the likely hood I understood the theories correctly more likely.

have a friend here who has a couple fertile rose queen males, good luck!

Thanks man for he input. I mean I know it's not my thread but I appreciate finding out it's possible to have fertile Rose Queen Males. And since your friend has several it might be assumed that they are more likely to be fertile then other varieties of Hybrids.