My iron head,trachy trach!!

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CicPolycats85

Gambusia
MFK Member
Jul 31, 2022
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Raleigh,NC
Hey guys!!!!
Figured I’d start another thread regarding my iron head. I can’t find any decent stuff on them anywhere else but here. Fish is around 1 year old I believe and roughly 8”.

After I acquired her,I think(short dorsal fin),and realized she wasn’t a gulper,along with nursing back to health from heater burns,I moved her to a 55(largest I have at the moment). I added 3 nice hides and she immediately went for the driftwood to jam herself under and remained there for weeks. I have since moved the wood to the front of the tank so I know this fish exists,and can monitor easier. I decided to risk tankmates despite what I’ve read,and haven’t seen anything happen 🤷‍♂️ Cichlids,rainbow fish and a couple plecos. Of course I’m not there at night,but nothing seems out of place and no fish are gone or injured,so I’m assuming she’s not interested at the moment..perhaps as they mature is when trouble could arise?. Fish was steady eating silversides but lately has stopped and has no interest. I’ve tried many different foods to no avail. Left some earthworms that seemed to have disappeared when the lights went out,and even went out and got some fresh fish to gut and try feeding organs. Took the liver very quick,but not much interest in the meat. Since she did take that item very fast I don’t think it’s a health issue. She looks very nice and healthy.No tattered fins,nice black sheen on the body.. if anyone whose kept these cool cats can give me food advice I’d appreciate it.. thing I’m curious about is activity. I’ve seen videos of them swimming about and vacuuming up pellets,but mine seems content to become one with the driftwood 😂. Perhaps a maturity thing again?. Thanks for checking the post. Just wanted to open up a thread so I can add updates and talk to/learn from other keepers.
 
Silversides are not a complete nutritional package and also contain antinutrient thiaminase.
 
Silversides are not a complete nutritional package and also contain antinutrient thiaminase.
I’ve watched you’re recent videos 😔. Seems to be a major issue. From what I’ve read,not sure how true it is. Silverside is more or less a blanket term,but true silversides don’t contain it?. I forgot what you switched to in the recent videos,I’ll go back and look,and research what fish don’t contain it.maybe try soaking pellets too.
 
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Found this in a garter snake forum.

following fish have been reported safe — or at least, free from thiaminase:

  • Amberjack, Greater (Seriola dumerilii)
  • Ayu (Plecoglossus altivelis)
  • Barracuda, Great (Sphyraena barracuda)
  • Bass, Largemouth (Micropterus salmoides)
  • Bass, Northern Rock (Ambloplites rupestris)
  • Bass, Northern Smallmouth (Micropterus dolomieu)
  • Bloater (Coregonus hoyi)
  • Bluegill (Lepomis macrochirus)
  • Cisco / Lake Herring (Coregonus artedi)
  • Cod, Atlantic (Gadus morhua)
  • Crappie, Black (Pomoxis nigromaculatus)
  • Croaker, Atlantic (Micropogonias undulates)
  • Croaker, Spot (Leiostomus xanthurus)
  • Cunner (Tautogolabrus adspersus
  • Dogfish, Piked (Squalus acanthias)
  • Eel, American (Anguilla rostrata)
  • Eel, Common (Anguilla anguilla)
  • Flounder, Winter / Lemon Sole (Pseudopleuronectes americanus)
  • Flounder, Yellowtail (Limanda ferruginea)
  • Gar, Longnose (Lepisosteus osseus)
  • Glasseye (Heteropriacanthus cruentatus)
  • Haddock (Melanogrammus aeglefinus)
  • Hairtail, Largehead (Trichiurus lepturus)
  • Hake (Urophycis)
  • Hake, Silver (Merluccius bilinearis)
  • Halibut, Atlantic (Hippoglossus hippoglossus)
  • Kawakawa (Euthynnus affinis)
  • Kingfish, Southern (Menticirrhus americanus)
  • Lizardfish, Inshore (Synodus foetens)
  • Mackerel, Atlantic (Scomber scombrus)
  • Marlin, Atlantic Blue (Makaira nigricans)
  • Mullet (Mugil)
  • Perch, European (Perca fluviatilis)
  • Perch, Ocean / Redfish (Sebastes marinus)
  • Perch, Yellow (Perca flavescens)
  • Pike, Northern (Esox lucius)
  • Plaice, American (Hippoglossoides platessoides)
  • Plaice, European (Pleuronectes platessa)
  • Pollock / Saithe (Pollachius)
  • Pumpkinseed (Lepomis gibbosus)
  • Salmon, Atlantic (Salmo salar)
  • Salmon, Coho (Oncorhynchus kisutch)
  • Scad, Mackerel (Decapterus pinnulatus)
  • Scad, Yellowtail (Atule mate)
  • Scup / Southern Porgy (Stenotomus chrysops)
  • Sea Catfish, Hardhead (Ariopsis felis)
  • Seabass, Black (Centropristis striata)
  • Searobin (Prionotus)
  • Seatrout, Sand (Cynoscion arenarius)
  • Seatrout, Silver (Cynoscion nothus)
  • Skate (Raja)
  • Smelt, Pond (Hypomesus olidus)
  • Soldierfish, Blotcheye (Myripristis berndti)
  • Sole, Common/Black (Solea solea)
  • Sprat, European (Sprattus sprattus)
  • Surgeonfish, Eyestripe (Acanthurus dussumieri)
  • Tautog / Blackfish (Tautoga onitis)
  • Tilapia (various species)
  • Trout, Brown (Salmo trutta)
  • Trout, Lake (Salvelinus namaycush)
  • Trout, Rainbow (Oncorhynchus mykiss)
  • Trout, Sea (Salmo trutta)
  • Tusk (Brosme brosme)
  • Walleye (Sander vitreus)
  • Weakfish, Sand (Cynoscion arenarius)
 
I thought silversides were an anchovy. I went to check but failed to find this quickly. Atlantic silverside Menidia menidia apppears to have not been tested for thiaminase in the sources I read.

My list compiled from a dozen sources, not quite finished but I'd say 95% is finished.

Freshwater fish containing Thiaminase

There are really only three groups of foods dangerously rich in thiaminase: mussels (popular, cheap & available), crustaceans (the widely used prawns & shrimps), & cyprinids (carp, goldfish, minnows, danios, etc.). Among the human food fish families, species containing T. include carps, minnows, herrings, anchovies, goatfishes & snappers.

Family Cyprinidae (Minnows or carps):

All Cyprinidae - carp Cyprinus carpio, rudd, roach, goldfish Carassius auratus, tench, minnow etc

Common bream (Abramis brama) (not the U.S. fish)

Central stoneroller (Campostoma anomalum or Campostoma anomalum pullum)

Emerald shiner (Notropis atherinoides)

Spottail shiner (Notropis hudsonius)

Buckeye Shiner – Notropis atherinoides

Rosy red, Fathead minnow (Pimephales promelas)

Olive barb (Puntius sarana)

Family Salmonidae (Salmonids):

Lake whitefish (Coregonus clupeaformis)

Round whitefish (Prosopium cylindraceum or c. quadriaterale)

Family Catostomidae (Suckers):

Common white sucker (Catostomus commersonii)

Bigmouth buffalo, Buffalofish (Ictiobus cyprinellus)

Family Ictaluridae (North American freshwater catfishes):

Brown bullhead catfish (Ameiurus nebulosus)

Bullhead catfish – Ameiurus spp

Channel catfish (Ictalurus punctatus)

Other families:

Bowfin (Amia calva) - family Amiidae (Bowfins)

Burbot (Lota lota) - family Lotidae (Hakes & burbots)

Burbot (Lota Lota maculosa)

White bass (Morone chrysops) - family Moronidae (Temperate basses)

Smelt Osmerus spp, Rainbow smelt (f/w smelt Osmerus mordax) - family Osmeridae (Smelts)

Loach, Weatherfish (Misgurnus sp.) - family Cobitidae (Loaches)

Garfish (Garpike)

Brackish fish containing Thiaminase

Family Clupeidae (Herrings):

Alewife (Alosa pseudoharengus), lives in f/w too

American Gizzard Shad (Dorosoma cepedianum)

Other families:

Sea lamprey (Petromyzon marinus) - family Petromyzontidae (Lampreys)

Fourhorn Sculpin (Triglopsis quadricornis or q. thompsonii) - family Cottidae (Sculpins)

Salmon (sp. indet., processed & salted, probably Oncorhynchus sp.) - family Salmonidae (Salmonids)

Marine fish containing Thiaminase

Family Engraulidae (Anchovies):

Broad-striped anchovy (Anchoa hepsetus)

Californian anchovy (Engraulis mordax)

Goldspotted grenadier anchovy (Coilia dussumieri)

Family Clupeidae (Herrings):

Atlantic herring (Clupea harrengus)

Baltic herring Clupea harrengus var. membranus

Atlantic menhaden aka ogy, Shad, Bunker, Mossbunker, Fatback, Razor Belly, Alewife, LY (Brevoortia tyrannus)

Gulf or large-scale menhaden (Brevoortia patronus)

Razor belly or scaled sardine (Harengula jaguana = pilchard, white bait, horse minnow) (H. pensacolae)

Sauger (Harengula jaguana) (Stizostedion c. canadense)

Family Scombridae (Mackerels, tunas, bonitos):

Chub mackerel Pacific mackerel Northern mackerel (Scomber japonicus)

Skipjack tuna (Katsuwonus pelamis)

Yellowfin tuna (Neothunnus macropterus)

Family Lutjanidae (Snappers):

Green jobfish (Aprion virescens)

Ruby snapper (Etelis carbunculus)

Crimson jobfish (Pristipomoides filamentosus)

Family Carangidae (Jacks):

Giant trevally (Caranx ignobilis)

Doublespotted queenfish (Scomberoides lysan)

Bigeye scad (Selar crumenophthalmus)

Family Mullidae (Goatfishes):

Red Sea goatfish (Mulloidichthys auriflamma)

Yellowstripe goatfish (Mulloidichthys samoensis)

Manybar goatfish (Parupeneus multifasciatus)

Other families:

American butterfish (Peprilus triacanthus) - family Stromateidae (Butterfishes)

Southern ocellated moray (Gymnothorax ocellatus) - family Muraenidae (Moray eels)

Bonefish (Albula vulpes) - family Albulidae (Bonefishes)

Milkfish (Chanos chanos) - family Chanidae (Milkfish)

Common dolphinfish (Coryphaena hippurus) - family Coryphaenidae (Dolphinfishes)

Hawaiian flagtail (Kuhlia sandvicensis) - family Kuhliidae (Aholeholes)

Black cod (sp. indet.) - family Moridae (Morid cods)

Flathead grey mullet aka striped (US, American Fisheries Society name), black, bully, common, grey, sea mullet, & just mullet (Mugil cephalus) - family Mugilidae (Mullets) Ref. 2

Sixfinger threadfin (Polydactylus sexfilis) - family Polynemidae (Threadfins)

Regal parrot (Scarus dubius) - family Scaridae (Parrotfishes)

Swordfish (Xiphias gladius) - family Xiphiidae (Swordfish)

Dogfish, Spurdog sharks Squalus spp

Whiting Gadus merlangus possibly, ref.5

Invertebrates containing Thiaminase

Bivalves: Bivalves such as clams can be a good food within a varied diet, but many contain a lot of Thiaminase & should not be used exclusively; some however, notably cockles, contain little Thiaminase & are consequently a better all-around food for mollusk-feeding predators such as pufferfish.

Ocean quahog or Black quahog (Artica islandica)

Clam (Tellina spp.) but not oysters

Cherrystone, Chowder, Steamer clams (family Veneridae)

Pigtoe or bigtoe mussel (Pleurobema cordatum)

Scallop (Pecten grandis)

Hawaiian clam (sp. indet.; extremely high in thiaminase)

Blue mussel (Mytilus galloprovincialis)

Gastropods containing Thiaminase

Limpet (Helcioniscus sp.)

Cephalopods containing Thiaminase

Hawaiian flying squid (Nototodarus hawaiiensis)

Crustaceans containing Thiaminase

Prawn, Tiger shrimp (Penaeus spp.)

Shrimp Penaeus setiferus

Lobster ref.11

Freshwater Fish not containing Thiaminase

Cockles, tilapia, pollock, cod, haddock, the smelt sold as lancefish (couldn’t find what species this is). In general, N.A. sunfishes, flounders, cods & croakers are T.-free. Terrestrial foods in general, e.g. earthworms, bloodworms & crickets.

Family Centrarchidae (North American Sunfishes):

Largemouth bass (Micropterus salmoides)

Northern smallmouth bass (Micropterus dolomieu)

Northern rock bass (Ambloplites rupestris) aka rock perch, goggle-eye, red eye, & black perch, native to east-central North America. Has red eyes. Can be distinguished by the 6 spines in the anal fin vs 3 for other sunfish.

Blue gill (Lepomis macrochirus)

Pumpkinseed (Lepomis gibbosus)

Black crappie (Pomoxis nigromaculatus)

Family Percidae (Perches):

Yellow perch (Perca flavescens)

Perch Perca fluviatilis

Walleye or wall-eyed pike (Sander vitreus)

Family Salmonidae (Salmonids):

Chub or Bloater (Coregonus hoyi)

Lake trout (Salvelinus namaycush)

Rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss)

Rainbow Trout Salmo gairdnerii irideus

Brown Trout Salmo trutta fario

Most Salmonidae (trout, salmon, char etc.)

Other families:

Ayu sweetfish, a species of smelt (Plecoglossus altivelis) - family Plecoglossidae (Ayu fish)

Northern Longnose Gar (Lepisosteus osseus oxyurus) - family Lepisosteidae (Gars)

Northern Pike (Esox lucius) - family Esocidae (Pikes)

Tilapia various species

Brackish fish not containing Thiaminase

Family Salmonidae (Salmonids):

Cisco Lake herring (Coregonus artedi or a. areturus), Lake Superior

Atlantic Salmon (Salmo salar)

Coho salmon (Oncorhynchus kisutch)

Sea trout (Salmo trutta)

Other families:

Common eel (Anguilla anguilla) - family Anguillidae (True eels)

American eel aka Atlantic, black, Boston, bronze, common, freshwater eel - Anguilla rostrata

Pond smelt (Hypomesus olidus) - family Osmeridae (Smelts), f/w too

Marine fish not containing Thiaminase

Family Pleuronectidae (Righteye flounders):

Winter flounder, Black back, Lemon sole (Pseudopleuronectes americanus or a. dignabilis)

European plaice (Pleuronectes platessa)

American or Canadian plaice (Hippoglossoides platessoides)

Atlantic halibut (Hippoglossus hippoglossus)

Yellowtail flounder (Limanda ferruginea)

Family Gadidae (Cods & haddocks)

Atlantic cod (Gadus morhua)

Haddock (Melanogrammus aeglefinus or Gadus aeglefinus)

Saithe, Pollock (Pollachius virens & other spp.) P. virens & P. pollachius are called pollock (US) or Boston blue (not bluefish), coalfish/coley, podley & saithe (UK)

Family Sciaenidae (Drums or croakers):

Atlantic croaker (Micropogonias undulatus)

Southern kingfish, king whiting, ground mullet (Menticirrhus americanus)

Spot, Spot croaker (Leiostomus xanthurus)

Silver seatrout or white trout (Cynoscion nothus)

Sand weakfish or white trout too (Cynoscion avenarius)

Family Carangidae (Jacks):

Greater amberjack (Seriola dumerilii)

Yellowtail scad aka northern yellowtail scad, one-finlet scad, deep trevally & omaka (Atule mate)

Mackerel scad or Speedo (Decapterus pinnulatus = Decapterus macarellus)

Family Labridae (Wrasses):

Cunner (Tautogolabrus adspersus)

Tautog or blackfish (Tautoga onitis)

Family Scombridae (Mackerels, tunas, bonitos):

Atlantic mackerel aka Boston, Northern, Norwegian, Scottish mackerel or just mackerel (Scomber scombrus) (ref. 5 lists this fish as possibly containing thiaminase)

Kawakawa (Euthynnus affinis)

Other families:

European Bass Dicentrarchus or Morone labrax

Sole Solea solea

European Sprat (Sprattus sprattus), aka bristling, brisling, garvie, garvock, Russian sardine, russlet, skipper or whitebait

Cusk or tusk (Brosme brosme) - family Lotidae (Hakes & burbots)

Largehead hairtail, aka beltfish, ribbon fish, silver eel (Trichiurus lepturus) - family Trichiuridae (Cutlassfishes)

Piked dogfish (Squalus acanthias) - family Squalidae (Dogfish sharks)

Hake (Urophycis sp. of Pacific, Urophycis sp. of G. of Mexico) - family Phycidae (Phycid hakes)

Inshore lizardfish (Synodus foetens) - family Synodontidae (Lizardfishes)

Mullet Gulf of Mexico (Mugil spp.) - family Mugilidae (Mullets) except Flathead mullet (Mugil cephalus) see above

Scup, Porgy, Southern porgy (Stenotomus chrysops, S. aculeatus) - family Sparidae (Porgies)

Ocean perch, Redfish (Sebastes marinus) - family Sebastidae (Rockfishes)

Black seabass (Centropristis striata) - family Serranidae (Sea basses & Groupers)

Hardhead sea catfish (Ariopsis felis) - family Ariidae (Sea catfishes)

Sea robin (Prionotus spp.) - family Triglidae (Sea robins)

Silver hake or Whiting (Merluccius bilinearis) - family Merlucciidae (Merluccid hakes)

Hake Merluccius merluccius

Eyestripe surgeonfish (Acanthurus dussumieri) - family Acanthuridae (Surgeonfishes)

Atlantic blue marlin (Makaira nigricans) - family Istiophoridae (Billfishes)

Blotcheye soldierfish (Myripristis berndti) - family Holocentridae (Squirrelfishes, soldierfishes)

Glasseye (Heteropriacanthus cruentatus) - family Priacanthidae (Bigeyes or catalufas)

Great barracuda (Sphyraena barracuda) - family Sphyraenidae (Barracudas)

Skate Raja spp

Invertebrates not containing Thiaminase

Bivalves:

Cockle (Cardium spp.) (cockles contain little Thiaminase, per section “Invertebrates containing T.”)

Oysters

Crustaceans not containing Thiaminase

Marine shrimps (sp. indet.; Hawaii) – the only exception?

Portuguese crabs (sp. indet.)

Cephalopods not containing Thiaminase

Squid, Brief squid, calmar (Lolliguncula brevis)

Ref. 2: Guppies, mollies as feeder fish: Little or nothing is known about the thiaminase content of some of the small ornamental fishes usually used as feeders. However, goldfish & minnows (including rosy red minnows) definitely contain thiaminase & consequently make very poor choices as feeders. On the other hand, the Poeciliidae (e.g., guppies, mollies, mosquitofish) are often recommended as safe feeder fishes for predators because of their presumed to be low thiaminase content.

Despite claims among aquarists that guppies contain thiaminase producing bacteria, I am not aware of any scientific study demonstrating this to be the case. Since poecilids are grazers, an uptake of thiaminase-producing cyanobacteria would be possible, though less probable in a freshwater aquarium where a much smaller variety of algae are likely to be present than in the wild.

Anecdotal evidence that the notoriously delicate Ribbon Eel can live on a diet of mostly gut loaded black mollies for more than 15 years would seem to suggest that poeciliids are largely thiaminase-free & make a safe choice for feeder fish. Of course, this depends on the quality of the feeder fish being used, & cheap feeder guppies from pet stores might not contain any thiaminase but could certainly contain all sorts of pathogenic bacteria & parasites! So when poeciliids are described as being among the best feeder fish, this depends on them being bred at home & gut loaded with Vitamin B1-enriched foods, such as a good quality flake food. Because poeciliids have a high tolerance for saltwater (mollies in particular can be maintained indefinitely under marine conditions) they are equally useful in saltwater tanks as in freshwater aquaria. The thiaminase content of guppies is unknown, but considered low or negligible, making them much safer to use than goldfish or minnow feeders.
 
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I think the problem here is that there are many, many species that are called collectively "silversides". Around here, everything that looks like a silverside is a silverside. Anchovies and stuff are just lumped in there, and that could be true of the "silversides" that are sold as fish food. You can't really know if they contain thiaminase or not. The other flip side to this is that you can feed foods containing thiaminase as long as the majority of the diet is prey items that do not contain Thiaminase. Try chunks of swai, nightcrawlers, and try to see if it will take pellets.
One thing about species like this is that you need to have plenty of cover for them to retreat to, if they have that they will generally feel more comfortable and may be out and about a little bit more.
 
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