Mycobacterium? I’m at a loss here.

[Deadeye]

Have you tested your water?

Yes

If yes, what is your ammonia?

0

If yes, what is your nitrite?

0

If yes, what is your nitrate?

<5

If I did not test my water...

1. ...I recognize that I will likely be asked to do a test, and that water tests are critical for solving freshwater health problems.

Do you do water changes?

Yes

What percentage of water do you change?

61-70%

How frequently do you change your water?

Every two weeks

If I do not change my water...

1. ...I recognize that I will likely be recommended to do a water change, and water changes are critical for preventing future freshwater health problems.

Just lost my white molly which had been on the way out for a few weeks now. The fish got thin (but not bony thin) and slowed down eating. It got very lethargic, and towards the end a bent spine became more and more noticeable. In addition, the one of the Molly’s gills had a large red sore.
I also lost an Amazon puffer a few weeks back to similar symptoms, but without the gill problem.
Both fish continued to eat, though not as much, throughout the course of infection, and never showed white stringy poo (on one instance the molly did, but it was back to normal by the next time).
Fish were treated with levamisole, metroplex, and kanaplex, with no success.
Detailed day to day history is in this thread:

Sick puffer - Can’t seem to figure out what’s up

So this one has always been the thin puffer, but only recently (in the past few weeks) has it become sickly thin. The fish still eats normally, but doesn’t really gain weight. I haven’t seen any white stringy poo. It swims rather slowly and wobbly compared to the other puffer. I’m seeing similar...

www.monsterfishkeepers.com

Any ideas what I’m looking at and how to treat for it? Is there a treatment at all?
I had lost mbunas back in January/February 2021 before making it a planted tank, for all I know it was the same infection.

 

[duanes]

The problem with this species of gram positive bacteria, is that it is known to have become resistant to most antibiotics (a super bug).
Two or more antibiotics effective against gram + bacteria, may be needed at the same time to defeat it. But....if it were me
I would treat it in much the same way as I would a tank that had been infected with Columnaris.
I would euthanize all fish in the tank, and totally sanitize everything that touched the water with bleach, before putting any new fish in the tank (filter media, nets, airline tubing etc etc). Be careful to not nick yourself in the process, it can cause skin nfection in humans ( I would use rubber gloves)
By adding other fish without these type drastic measures you just end up perpetuating the disease.
About 50% of Mycobacterium infections in humans result from aquariums, others from fishing (getting stuck with a spine) and shell fish cleaning.
I realize this means starting the tank from scratch.
I would also QT any new fish for at least 3 months before adding to a community (especially if bought the same place your first sick fish came from).
The bacteria is comfortable in fresh and sea water.

 

[duanes]

One other thought..
Do you know for sure that it is Mycobacterium?
Did you take the dead fish, or a swab to a microbiology lab to run a test?
Although it may look like it, and this disease is common, many fish diseases produce similar symptoms, so unless you are sure, how do you know how to treat?

I keep a number of fish disease books, that contain hundreds of known diseases and how to treat them, but without lab test, its a crap shoot.

 

[Deadeye]

I don’t know for sure it’s myco, but simply based on all of the symptoms, especially the slow, wasting deaths without any white poop or worms, it is in line with what I’ve read on myco.

 

[Deadeye]

Any way to do the acid fast test at home?
I still have the molly, I assume I could freeze it and that would preserve potential bacteria?

 

[duanes]

I don’t know for sure it’s myco, but simply based on all of the symptoms, especially the slow, wasting deaths without any white poop or worms, it is in line with what I’ve read on myco.

I don't know of any "home" acid fast testing.
If you have all the slides, stains, rinses, and a powerful microscope it might be possible
API makes some more simple tests that don't require a microscope, the ones below are what I used in the lab, but even here, other proper equipment is needed, including glass ware and an incubator at 37'C
PreviewPreview6:54Performing an API TestYouTube · URMICRO16 minutes, 54 secondsJan 19, 2011
The last time I used this test method was over 10 years ago, so I don't remember its cost

 

[Deadeye]

Thanks for the link - I definitely don’t have a lot of that on hand.

 

[Deadeye]

duanes
Do you know if there is a way to salvage any plants in the cleaning process, or are those all doomed as well? And it can survive fresh and salt, right?

 

[duanes]

I am not sure about being able to salvage anything in these pathogenic bacterial cases.
I tend "not" to take or gamble on chances.
If there is even a chance on reinfection, I err on the side of caution, because the cost, and stress of treatment is usually well beyond replacement of stock, be it plant, animal, or even some gear.
This is why I'm so anal about extended quarantines, of 3 months or more.

 

[jjohnwm]

This is one case where being obsessive pays off. A quarantine of 3 - 6 months is the minimum I do with new arrivals, regardless of source. I also keep nets, siphons etc. in a bucket of betadine solution. Paranoid? Yes...but since virtually all fish medications are unavailable to me (Canada. eh?) and since I don't like euthanizing fish, I think of it as just being prudent.