Mysterious khuli deaths

[Saterus]

Several months back my 10g crashed overnight. It was problematic in the beginning because my well meaning hubby went and bought a bunch of fish within a week of setup and didn't want to bring them back. I battled cycling a little, had an algae bloom and lost some fish, then he bought shrimp that killed half the rest, then it stabilized. Again, well meaning, he added some glolight tetras which broke out in some sort of fungus. We moved the inverts and I treated the tank which killed the fungus and the affected tetras recovered, then went down hill and died or were euthanized. The Pleco got the fungus but didn't recover or was killed by treatment (died 2 days after it finished). Two khuli loaches were among the original pre-cycle stock. I was left with the loaches and a single robust tetra. After a few months I brought in 3 more baby loaches. Everyone lived happily for another 3 months and BAM 7 hours after topping off the water for the next days water change (same as always) all but one of the older loaches was dead. He LOOKED dead though, it was as if their skin just peeled off. Nothing new added, no cleaning done in or near the tank, all parameters tested normal, never figured it out.

Today my black khuli loach tank at the LFS had the exact same thing happen. Baby plecos and khulis that have been in there for months, no problems. NO water was added or taken from the tank in the 2 days previous, no surrounding tanks had any problems, no treatments recently, I checked copper this time as well after speculating perhaps it had something to do with my own tank die off and it wasn't there.. 6 khulis dead, 3 dying, 2 plecos dead, 2 dying, 4 look okay, later 2 showing signs of the skin peeling.
BTW, the first thing I did was grab all the okay looking ones and moved them to an empty cycled tank.

I am at a loss
The owner of the LFS has no clue, the few fish people in the area have no clue, I never found anyone with any idea about my own tank crash before..

Anyone here have an idea? Something I could test for hopefully?

 

[Lupin]

Hi,

I am very sorry to hear your losses. I know this is very frustrating for you so I will try to gather my thoughts little by little for us to pin down the exact issues responsible for your losses.

The first thing I notice is you did not list the exact water parameters but comments which are very vague. Could you please tell us your water parameters? If you have the diary to log all the test results from the beginning, it will help a lot. If not, I'd retrieve test results before and after a recent water change is conducted. Please check your tap water as well. Test for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, KH (carbonate hardness) and GH (general hardness). I suggest that you use liquid drops by API and stay away from test strips which give misleading results most of the time.

Secondly, what species of shrimps were added? Actually if copper was the issue, all your shrimps would instantly die. They lack tolerance for heavy traces of copper and even then, most fish also lack tolerance and slowly die from intoxication of heavy metals. Since your test did not detect copper levels, then we can cross out the copper as one of the possible culprits.

I do not believe your tetras actually suffered from fungal infections. If anything, fungal infections are extremely rare to come by unless every tetra has been manhandled wherein their skin and slime coat were severely damaged as a result. Fungal infections can be confused with bacterial infections particularly the Flexibacter columnaris, one of the most common bacterial infections in the aquarium industry. It may be that type of disease you encountered with your tetras previously since it has often been confused with fungal infections for lack of microscopic examinations or photos to document the exact appearance of the affected areas that could allow a much accurate diagnosis. When you treated your tetras, what medicine did you use?

On the other hand, your tank sounds overstocked to me. I cannot imagine a 10g housing four plecos which excrete heavy amounts of poop. This is where the water parameters are extremely important and should therefore be pasted here. Also, pictures of their affected areas and how they look must be included. If you have abrasive decorations, then those must also be removed.

Does your spare tank have a sponge filter and heater at the moment? Keep monitoring the water parameters there and do daily water changes until the remaining survivors recover completely.

Lastly, there is nothing here that indicates you quarantine every new fish you get. I suggest that every new fish you obtain regardless of the circumstances, must be quarantined for 3-4 weeks in a separate tank. Even healthy fish may actually be a disease carrier which is why quarantine procedures should not be taken for granted. If your husband has a habit for introducing new fish without quarantining, if I were you, I'd give him a brief talk about why quarantine is extremely necessary. Many people do not quarantine and while some are lucky enough to avoid disease outbreaks, others are not that they learn their lesson the hard way losing a vast sum of money worth of their prized collections. I've been there before which is why I encourage quarantine procedures to be done now and then for every new fish to prevent others from going through the same route where we sometimes tempt ourselves to push our luck hard.

Hope this helps.

Lupes

 

[Saterus]

Sorry, I was trying not to make it into a novel.. I guess it left it pretty confusing.
I do use API liquid tests, BTW.
The first tank it happened in was free of shrimp at the time, they were removed before I treated the tetras for their infection. I believe I used a Jungle Labs Fungus Clear, I had nothing on hand and had to go to walmart late at night (yes, ashamed). Whatever attacked the tetras affected their gills and mouth. It looked fuzzy/cottony, caused swelling, and once it was gone the mouth continued to deteriorate until the jaw seemed to hang permanently open and they couldn't eat. I dipped one in malachite green (after the jungle stuff didn't fully cure it) which helped briefly (it seemed) but within 2 weeks it clearly couldn't eat and I put it in the freezer. There was also a pea puffer that seemed to catch it, none of the fuzziness but the swollen gills and mouth. I dipped him as well and he ate for a day or two but again, his mouth wouldn't work and he couldn't eat.
The 2 loaches and surviving tetra lived alone for about 2 months before I got 3 more khulis (making 5 total). The khulis and tetra lived happily for about 3 months before they all died overnight. The pH was 6.8 when I tested after they died and it had been the same pretty steadily throughout the 3 months. It dipped to 6.6 a few times but if it did I immediately did a water change. Ammonia and nitrites stayed at 0. Nitrates about 15-20, don't know the hardness, I only had API's "master test kit" and it doesn't include that.
Four of the 5 loaches and the single glowlight tetra died overnight, one loach was still alive. They were all fuzzy white, the living one was too, 90% of his body looked covered in white mucus like the others with a few patches of blood scattered in.

That was MY 10g tank.. It is now happily housing several snails, guppies, cherry shrimp, and a striped raphael cat with no problems. Some of them will be moving to other tanks.

The second incident was at the LFS in a 20g, I am now "in charge" of the fish there. The plecos were all about 0.5in and only received by the store 2 weeks before it happened, the black khulis that were in there had been there for about 1 1/2 months.
The parameters were not checked in the last few weeks (50-some tanks, can't test them all) but I tested after I removed the fish and they showed pH 7.4, trace ammonia, .25 nitrite, 10 nitrate. Obviously cycling
The dead fish looked like mine; white mucousy bodies, blood stained patches, some still living but with the same patches taking over. The ones I moved I added some NovAqua to the water and 3 or 4 baby plecos lived (they're hard to spot), they seem fine now. Two khulis were alive, one was half white already and died the next day. One was about 30% white and has recovered, no more white patches and he comes out of hiding to eat.
I think it's got to be something in the water instead of a disease but I still have no idea what.. And again, this is the tank I tested for copper, not my own, and it was 0.
I have only done 2 water changes on the impromptu hospital tank, 10% each time. All the fish seem well and healthy. Oh, and it has an old undergravel filter + sponge filter.

After reading through some books, pictures of "turbid skin" perfectly describe what these fish looked like. White, mucousy, once dead they look fuzzy quick.

And my hubby HAS fortunately learned how important quarantine and PLANNING are. We recently set up a 55 for an electric cat and he agreed to fully cycling beforehand and quarantining any feeder fish we provide him (or breeding them ourselves ).

Added issue: At the LFS, a large red zebra cichlid was put into a tank I was told had NO fish in it but is overrun by green and brush algae so it's hard to confirm that, it's been neglected for months.. I found a small banjo cat in there with his tail bitten off by the cichlid.. He's in with the baby plecos and loach, seems to get around okay (can't swim well obviously), the tail was red but seems to be healing. Can he live a decent life? I was planning to take him home if he survives to live with with my guppies, snails and shrimp after the raphael is moved but IDK.. Sorry if that was a gratuitous combining of what should be 2 threads..

I hope this is clearer I'm sorry for not responding sooner. I will try to check at least daily for responses.