OTHER CHARACINS FORUM RENOVATION...*LOOK HERE!!!*

[xander]

in the spirit of keeping each sub-forum organised and up to date, we've decided to do a renovation for this forum. this means new stickies, new concepts etc.

firstly, i believe we should tackle the unspoken question of "What belongs in the other characins forum".

here is a concept map i did up in attempt to show exactly which fishes belong in this sub-forum. it is yet to be coloured etc, but here it is for now. i really need input on which fishes should be removed from this list (eg fishes that are unavailable in the hobby) and which fishes should be added in (etc for genus Myleus, i don't know which species are available in the hobby and there are just too many to include all species'.)

any and all input will be greatly appreciated, thanks!

 

[xander]

should you feel a particular fish needs to be removed from the map, please follow this format: (in this case, we take the example of Hydrolycus wallacei)

REMOVAL OF FISH FROM MAP

cynodontidae > cynodontinae > cynodontinae > hydrolycus > wallacei

Reason: xxxxxxxxxxx

 

[xander]

should you feel a particular fish needs to be added from the map, please follow this format: (in this case, we take the example of Myleus schomburgkii)

ADDITION OF FISH TO MAP

characidae > Myleus > schomburgkii

Reason: xxxxxxxxxxx

 

[mynheers_a_pint]

i really need input on which fishes should be removed from this list (eg fishes that are unavailable in the hobby) and which fishes should be added in (etc for genus Myleus, i don't know which species are available in the hobby and there are just too many to include all species'.)

I like the idea of re-organization but reference the point above, I'd like to ask whether or not it is necessary to take any Charciform off of the list. Who is to say what is available and when and more to the point, do you really want to manage such a document? Undoubtedly there will come a point (See Hoplias) where there are changes made to the family, debunking names or splitting a species into two separate ones. Personally, I believe you'd be better off detailing the families, rather than the species- Hoplias, Myleus, Hydrolycus, Hydrocynus etc. By doing this, you avoid the necessity of managing the document. From a user perspective, the information will be detailed enough to make the decision whether or not they have a Characin but also high level enough that it does not require (constant) maintenance. The forums themselves can be used to discuss the individual species in detail.

As it stand, there may be some benefit from outlining what a Characin is, but maybe the issue is more the organization of the forum section itself- I.E having it housed under the 'Other monsters' section. If the goal here is to avoid mixing non-Characins in the characins forum, maybe the family needs to be moved from the 'other monsters' section and be managed similarly to the Cichlid sub-forums, perhaps by region or family but grouped specifically under the banner of Characins/Charciforms.

As the reasons are not outlined, I'd be interested to know what you're hoping to achieve by changing the sub-forum structure.* By outlining them, perhaps it becomes easier to think of more beneficial solutions/ideas?

*this is not a criticism and I fully understand that this is NOT a democracy and that you do not have to explain your reasoning.


EDIT; just to add, it wouldn't need to be as detailed as the Cichlid forum, perhaps in a similar vein to the Ancient fish or bottom dwellers. Obviously, you've already separated out the piranha's, maybe do something similar with Wolf, Payara or maybe more general and say Other predatory Characins and Non predatory Characins.

 

[Otherone]

I'm with Myheers - as it stands with your outline you have mixed BOTH Charcins and Charciformes. Example - Brycon are both Charciforme and Characin - Hyrdolycus is not - it is just Charciforme.

To be quite honest - the Forum name should be changed to Charciformes period as "Other Characins" or Characidae or Characins implys - Piranha, Pacu, Brycon, Xray tetras, Buenos Aries Tetras, Neon Tetras, Dorado, Glass headstanders, etc......

YET - most of the discussion on the forum is about ATF's , Wolves, and Vampires which are NOT Characidae/Characins - however Characidaes are Charciformes.

 

[peewee]

This might be off topic but i think there should also be a sub forum for cyprinids. I noticed that questions regarding this family of fishes are redirected to characins sub forum which as we know is entirely a different family. This has been the practice here for some time maybe due to characins and somy cyprinids have a silvery body. I feel it's due time for them to have their own sub forum. Lots of hobbyist here including me take care of cyprinids but yet not sure where to put queries and questions about them.

 

[Spiritofthesoul]

you sir, have too much spare time . Great concept map

 

[pacu mom]

Where's Piaractus?

 

[xander]

I like the idea of re-organization but reference the point above, I'd like to ask whether or not it is necessary to take any Charciform off of the list. Who is to say what is available and when and more to the point, do you really want to manage such a document? Undoubtedly there will come a point (See Hoplias) where there are changes made to the family, debunking names or splitting a species into two separate ones. Personally, I believe you'd be better off detailing the families, rather than the species- Hoplias, Myleus, Hydrolycus, Hydrocynus etc. By doing this, you avoid the necessity of managing the document. From a user perspective, the information will be detailed enough to make the decision whether or not they have a Characin but also high level enough that it does not require (constant) maintenance. The forums themselves can be used to discuss the individual species in detail.

that's a good point. will also help in areas where there are too many species within the genera. thanks for the suggestion, will work on it.

As it stand, there may be some benefit from outlining what a Characin is, but maybe the issue is more the organization of the forum section itself- I.E having it housed under the 'Other monsters' section. If the goal here is to avoid mixing non-Characins in the characins forum, maybe the family needs to be moved from the 'other monsters' section and be managed similarly to the Cichlid sub-forums, perhaps by region or family but grouped specifically under the banner of Characins/Charciforms.

i agree. perhaps this forum needs to be a stand alone sub-forum as "Charciformes", at least for a start. imo if we broke it down into families, it might result in overly diluted forums.

As the reasons are not outlined, I'd be interested to know what you're hoping to achieve by changing the sub-forum structure.* By outlining them, perhaps it becomes easier to think of more beneficial solutions/ideas?

again, thanks. to start, i decided to poke around and get your opinions as i've always gotten the feeling that i'm not quite sure what does and does not belong in the other characins forum. as the sub-forum name can be quite ambiguous. secondly, i've noticed that there are hardly any sticky topics in this section, and the ones we have are either incomplete, outdated and are limited in their scope (i believe the stickies only cover 2 or 3 genera).

thus what i hope we can achieve is a section that is more clear about what does and does not belong in it, AND more useful/organized information and/or sticky threads. i intended to get the "concept" map sorted first and then bring all this up as the discussion progressed, but thought i might as well put it out there.

*this is not a criticism and I fully understand that this is NOT a democracy and that you do not have to explain your reasoning.

honestly, i am not great with the fishes in this sub-forum, and need all the help i can get to come up with the stickies that should help improve the quality of the sub-forum. so if i am to hope for your help, i am obliged to give you an at least sort of satisfactory response to any questions/issues you might have.

EDIT; just to add, it wouldn't need to be as detailed as the Cichlid forum, perhaps in a similar vein to the Ancient fish or bottom dwellers. Obviously, you've already separated out the piranha's, maybe do something similar with Wolf, Payara or maybe more general and say Other predatory Characins and Non predatory Characins

i agree. perhaps this forum needs to be a stand alone sub-forum as "Charciformes", at least for a start. imo if we broke it down into families, it might result in overly diluted forums.

.

response in green

 

[mynheers_a_pint]

I think the interest in Characins/Charciforms has grown enough that it warrants a separate sub-forum where maybe 2 or 3 years ago, the interest was much lower. You hit on a good point regarding the dilution of the forum and may find that if it is broken down too much, the volume of traffic across these areas will dwindle- I don't think you'd see enough foot fall on all subforums if you split it by Wolf, Payara, ATF, etc.

That said, you may get away with a Charcin/Charciform forum with maybe the Piranha sub-forum, plus a Predatory Characin sub-forum and non predatory forum. You would potentially see benefits very early on and possibly give rise to additional expertise within the realm of herbivorous/omnivorous Characins/Charciforms that are possibly overwhelmed by the number of 'experts' on predatory Characins in the current format. There are problems with this though, and I can see issues of people not knowing whether or not their Characin is predetory and the many grey areas such as Ominvores.

A good place to start maybe to initially separate the 'other Characin' and 'Piranha' subforums and locate them under a singular banner of Characins/Charciforms. From there, you can then go about improving the overall presentation and organization then deal with stickies.


Prince 2 stage managment, at it's finest!