Potamotrygon, a short opinion of.

  • We are currently upgrading MFK. thanks! -neo

abortedsoul

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Sep 4, 2008
1,154
1
0
MD, USA
It seems to me, from the strange mix of my trained eye for biology (and science in general) and my ignorance for the collection situation of the specimens, that these rays (Potomotrygon leopoldi, P. motoro, etc) are all one species. The only significant difference between the "species" it seems, and I admit I very well might be wrong, is the particular genetic eddies that the isolated geographic locations have developed. In biology, this is known as a subspecies.

"Subspecies A taxonomic subdivision of a species;
a population of a particular region genetically
distinguishable from other such populations and
capable of interbreeding with them."
(Farabee, M.)

Species diverge (in general) from geographical separation. This allows both genetic "drift" and beneficial mutations in the different independent breeding groups to produce incompatibilities between the groups; with enough isolation, their anatomies and embryonic "recipes" diverge from each other so far as to render genetic mixing (sexual reproduction) impossible. This prevents any further mixing of the blood lines, further separating the two populations. That is where a species comes from.

These rays (Potamotrygon) are still breeding in the wild, as well as generating fertile offspring. There is enough genetic trickle that it is safe to say that these easily hybridized rays are, in fact, a single species (at least for the commonly kept rays similar to P. motoro and P. leopoldi, although the lifestyle differences and size may not allow this definition to apply to, for instance, P. reticulatus).

If anyone has any experience breeding hybrids, as well as anyone who has contact with the people that collect the specimens from the wild, please either post here or contact me! I'm trying to put a paper together on this, as well as make a modest contribution to the hobby and the scientific understanding of these beautiful creatures.


Farabee, M. "Online Biology Book." Glossary.
1994-2000. Bradley University. 12 Nov. 2008
<http://www.estrellamountain.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookglossS.htm[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]l>[/FONT]
 
miles has a few threads on this.. a search would have revealed quite a few...
 
Nic;2468698; said:
miles has a few threads on this.. a search would have revealed quite a few...

I've already taken note of those, as well as extracted some information from them; thanks for the heads up. This is also a general request for information, which I figured would be much easier to obtain here than taking a trip down to South America, although I may be doing that sometime in the relatively near future.
 
me thinks you got alot of your info already.. remember the keyword searches for google.. Any of Patricia Charvet-Almeida's work might prove vital to you..

You also might look into purchasing the dissertation of R.S Rosa.. this is the most current taxonomic revision of Potamotrygon to date, and alot of current information is based from his studies.. you can purchase a copy of it online somewhere, but no color drawing unfortunately.. I know rayman and I talked about this a while back - you might ask him about it. I would also read through every single on of Rayman's posts, as each and everytime they provide a wealth of insight.

What you are doing is awesome and I really hope someone (you) takes the time to put some perspective and hopefully some order to a few things.. it could be alot of work, but if its for school then all the better. Search for the DNA link about potamotrygon, it's a goodie...

ttyl bro PM me if you think of anything..

might glance at stingraysource.com before it expires on december 1st..
 
Miles;2469068; said:
me thinks you got alot of your info already.. remember the keyword searches for google.. Any of Patricia Charvet-Almeida's work might prove vital to you..

You also might look into purchasing the dissertation of R.S Rosa.. this is the most current taxonomic revision of Potamotrygon to date, and alot of current information is based from his studies.. you can purchase a copy of it online somewhere, but no color drawing unfortunately.. I know rayman and I talked about this a while back - you might ask him about it. I would also read through every single on of Rayman's posts, as each and everytime they provide a wealth of insight.

What you are doing is awesome and I really hope someone (you) takes the time to put some perspective and hopefully some order to a few things.. it could be alot of work, but if its for school then all the better. Search for the DNA link about potamotrygon, it's a goodie...

ttyl bro PM me if you think of anything..

might glance at stingraysource.com before it expires on december 1st..

I've had stingraysource.com bookmarked before I had a username on MFK. R.S Rosa's work is available on the shared drive on the school computers. I don't believe that I have seen Raymond's posts; I'll do that!

Stingraysource is going to expire? That sucks. Is that your site? You should keep it up, if it is. :grinno:
 
Miles;2469068; said:
me thinks you got alot of your info already.. remember the keyword searches for google.. Any of Patricia Charvet-Almeida's work might prove vital to you..

You also might look into purchasing the dissertation of R.S Rosa.. this is the most current taxonomic revision of Potamotrygon to date, and alot of current information is based from his studies.. you can purchase a copy of it online somewhere, but no color drawing unfortunately.. I know rayman and I talked about this a while back - you might ask him about it. I would also read through every single on of Rayman's posts, as each and everytime they provide a wealth of insight.

What you are doing is awesome and I really hope someone (you) takes the time to put some perspective and hopefully some order to a few things.. it could be alot of work, but if its for school then all the better. Search for the DNA link about potamotrygon, it's a goodie...

ttyl bro PM me if you think of anything..

might glance at stingraysource.com before it expires on december 1st..


you cant let it die.... put a paypal link on mfk... see if others will help you fund it... i would give you money for it but im on tight budget right now..
 
Nic;2469201; said:
you cant let it die.... put a paypal link on mfk... see if others will help you fund it... i would give you money for it but im on tight budget right now..

I agree, we can start a stingray research and development fund.
 
Some scientific work on the topic:

Latest describtion of a new species, Potamotrygon boesemani. Shows how scientist differenciate the species:
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1679-62252008000100001

First DNA barcoding in Potamotrygon:
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/gmb/v31n1s0/28.pdf
supporting pictures:
http://www.evoamazon.net/Legal_supporting_data/Potamotrygon_figures.pdf

One of the leading scientist in freshwater stingray research:
http://www.amnh.org/learn/welcomecenter/profiles/mcarvalho.php
 
rayman;2477227; said:
Some scientific work on the topic:

Latest describtion of a new species, Potamotrygon boesemani. Shows how scientist differenciate the species:
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1679-62252008000100001

First DNA barcoding in Potamotrygon:
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/gmb/v31n1s0/28.pdf
supporting pictures:
http://www.evoamazon.net/Legal_supporting_data/Potamotrygon_figures.pdf

One of the leading scientist in freshwater stingray research:
http://www.amnh.org/learn/welcomecenter/profiles/mcarvalho.php

Excellent links; thank you! (Nice find on the new ray! Hope to get one some day. :grinno:)
 
MonsterFishKeepers.com