Convict or hrp or hybrid? Someone on Facebook said no way these are convicts... "hybrids at a minimum" pointed out the lack of the Y bar and 4 spots?
Question for the species guru's we have here.
- Thread starter Tyler_Wentworth_150
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That's what I thought too, this other person was just so insistent as to make me question it. I just told him that they're healthy and happy and I like em. Didn't want to engage in some argument
Convicts are often hybrids from hrp these days like how vieja are becoming more hybridized.
They do like more hybrids though
They do like more hybrids though
It is very difficult to tell what is in a LFS convict these days. All of the amatitlania/cryptoheros species will hybridize fairly readily. These look like LFS convicts, but I wouldn't try to guess exactly what makes them up.
Tyler, the issue at hand isn't identifying the common name of the fish, it's the scientific name. Previously the fish was simply Archocentrus nigrofasciata...with some of the "Honduran Red Points" being labeled as "sp." or unclassified. To the best of my knowledge the Red Points are still unclassified but have been listed with the other "Convict" type fish in Amatitlania. The "Y" bar you are talking about is indicative to the entire classification of fish. (which BTW you DO have on the fish above)
From the Cichlid Room Companion regarding Amatitlania in general:
"Diagnosis: Three strict synapomorphies (Schmitter-Soto, in press): first bar on side of body, Y-shaped, wellmarked, caudal arm discontinuous; bars from sides of body extending fully to the edge of dorsal and anal fins; medial intensifications on 2nd and 3rd bars, sometimes also on 1st. Differs from most other heroine genera also as follows: mouth terminal (also in Cryptoheros and A. multispinosus); spots on opercle part of vertical bar on head (also in Caquetaia and H. nematopus), which extends fully across opercle (also in Rocio and Archocentrus); three procurrent rays on caudal fin (also in most Cryptoheros, Petenia, and Tomocichla); dentary symphysial teeth lower than adjacent teeth (also in Rocio, Cr. panamensis, and Petenia - not so abruptly lower as in Parachromis); premaxillary symphysial teeth abruptly larger than adjacent teeth (also in Rocio, Parachromis, Cr. myrnae, and Caquetaia); ascending premaxillary arm reaching only to anterior orbit rim (also in Rocio); maxilla dorsally serrated (also in Cryptoheros and Tomocichla). (Compiled from Schmitter-Soto, 2007)."
The real issue is what "flavor" of Convict...the common name. There are four fish that have this moniker: Nigrofasciata, Kanna, Siquia and Coatepeque (likely a junior synonym of Nigrofasciata). And the sad truth is that unless you get a specific species from a trusted supplier or pull it out of the water yourself, you will never know. Again...form the Cichlid room Companion, here's a detail on how the fish has been broken out from the long standing C. nigrofasciata:
"To distinguish C. nigrofasciatus from his C. kanna, C. siquia and C. coatepeque, the following diagnostic traits are given: C. nigrofasciatus the only species in the genus with two (vs. one) distal rows of interradial scales on anal fin (rows of scales off the base of the anal fin). Also, the extensions of the bones supporting the gill rakers (epibranchial bone) are parallel (vs. divergent). In addition, the end part of the bone supporting the lower jaw (dentigerous arm) is rounded or squarish (vs. triple-spined or bluntly pointed). Peritoneal coloration uniformly dark (vs. not uniformly dark). The body is also less high (deep) than in C. kanna and C. siquia, and the 4th bar on the flank is not Y-shaped as in C. coatepeque.
Of more interest perhaps is the diagnosis for the genus Amatitlania erected by Schmitter-Soto, based on three synapomorphies (characters that are likely to have been inherited from a common ancestor). The genus is thus diagnosed as follows; a) First bar on flank is Y-shaped; b) bars on flank extending fully to edge of dorsal and anal fins; c) 2nd and 3rd bars are widened forming blotch at center of body (Schmitter-Soto, 2007).
Given that, to my knowledge, there are no reported differences in the natural history between the four different populations that Schmitter-Soto regards as different species, what I write here can be applied to all of them.?"
So the other person that called them hybrids could possibly be correct, but not for the reason he implied. The fish in the photo you posted are definitely Convicts. I don't see any other influence of another non-convict species being an influence. While that "Y" bar is indicative to the species, with the convicts that are in the market, it's not a good indication. Line breeding alone can wipe that out. I've had...and if I can find I will post...fish that literally have spots instead of stripes.
Hope this helps.
From the Cichlid Room Companion regarding Amatitlania in general:
"Diagnosis: Three strict synapomorphies (Schmitter-Soto, in press): first bar on side of body, Y-shaped, wellmarked, caudal arm discontinuous; bars from sides of body extending fully to the edge of dorsal and anal fins; medial intensifications on 2nd and 3rd bars, sometimes also on 1st. Differs from most other heroine genera also as follows: mouth terminal (also in Cryptoheros and A. multispinosus); spots on opercle part of vertical bar on head (also in Caquetaia and H. nematopus), which extends fully across opercle (also in Rocio and Archocentrus); three procurrent rays on caudal fin (also in most Cryptoheros, Petenia, and Tomocichla); dentary symphysial teeth lower than adjacent teeth (also in Rocio, Cr. panamensis, and Petenia - not so abruptly lower as in Parachromis); premaxillary symphysial teeth abruptly larger than adjacent teeth (also in Rocio, Parachromis, Cr. myrnae, and Caquetaia); ascending premaxillary arm reaching only to anterior orbit rim (also in Rocio); maxilla dorsally serrated (also in Cryptoheros and Tomocichla). (Compiled from Schmitter-Soto, 2007)."
The real issue is what "flavor" of Convict...the common name. There are four fish that have this moniker: Nigrofasciata, Kanna, Siquia and Coatepeque (likely a junior synonym of Nigrofasciata). And the sad truth is that unless you get a specific species from a trusted supplier or pull it out of the water yourself, you will never know. Again...form the Cichlid room Companion, here's a detail on how the fish has been broken out from the long standing C. nigrofasciata:
"To distinguish C. nigrofasciatus from his C. kanna, C. siquia and C. coatepeque, the following diagnostic traits are given: C. nigrofasciatus the only species in the genus with two (vs. one) distal rows of interradial scales on anal fin (rows of scales off the base of the anal fin). Also, the extensions of the bones supporting the gill rakers (epibranchial bone) are parallel (vs. divergent). In addition, the end part of the bone supporting the lower jaw (dentigerous arm) is rounded or squarish (vs. triple-spined or bluntly pointed). Peritoneal coloration uniformly dark (vs. not uniformly dark). The body is also less high (deep) than in C. kanna and C. siquia, and the 4th bar on the flank is not Y-shaped as in C. coatepeque.
Of more interest perhaps is the diagnosis for the genus Amatitlania erected by Schmitter-Soto, based on three synapomorphies (characters that are likely to have been inherited from a common ancestor). The genus is thus diagnosed as follows; a) First bar on flank is Y-shaped; b) bars on flank extending fully to edge of dorsal and anal fins; c) 2nd and 3rd bars are widened forming blotch at center of body (Schmitter-Soto, 2007).
Given that, to my knowledge, there are no reported differences in the natural history between the four different populations that Schmitter-Soto regards as different species, what I write here can be applied to all of them.?"
So the other person that called them hybrids could possibly be correct, but not for the reason he implied. The fish in the photo you posted are definitely Convicts. I don't see any other influence of another non-convict species being an influence. While that "Y" bar is indicative to the species, with the convicts that are in the market, it's not a good indication. Line breeding alone can wipe that out. I've had...and if I can find I will post...fish that literally have spots instead of stripes.
Hope this helps.
And just to help illustrate the difference between yours and an HRP, here are a few HRPs I had.
male
female in spawning dress
male
female in spawning dress
And as seen in the photos, the male is already tall and stocky so I'm excited for him to have good proportions!