RO water changes *causing* HITH?

[Osprey101]

Have you tested your water?

Yes

If yes, what is your ammonia?

0

If yes, what is your nitrite?

0

If yes, what is your nitrate?

20

If I did not test my water...

1. ...I recognize that I will likely be asked to do a test, and that water tests are critical for solving freshwater health problems.

Do you do water changes?

Yes

What percentage of water do you change?

61-70%

How frequently do you change your water?

Every week

If I do not change my water...

1. ...I recognize that I will likely be recommended to do a water change, and water changes are critical for preventing future freshwater health problems.

I've been fighting HITH for about two years now, and have found that I can keep it in remission by feeding "red wiggler" worms, or by adding "worm tea" to the tank daily. The fish are fed Hikari Cichlid Gold, and the ingredients list is a kitchen sink of vitamins and supplements. I've also tried supplementing the feed with magnesium, vitamin C, vitamin D, vitamin E, B vitamins... probably other stuff I can't remember right now.

Recently, I have been trying to combat high nitrate levels by shifting from my previous regime (70% weekly water change, 120 gallon tank + half-filled 29 gallon sump) to ~10% daily changes, using about 50/50 tap water and RO water + magnesium sulfate. When I did this last year, the sensory pits became inflamed, and I got filmy white patches on the head which (if allowed to persist) eventually developed erosions. Trying the same thing this year, I'm getting the same darned thing- inflamed pits + filmy white marks.

There's a whopping total of two fish (one large, mature oscar, and one smaller, maybe-mature oscar) in that ~140 gallons, and I'm not prone to overfeeding. Tap water is variable, with up to 10 ppm nitrates part of the year, hence the attempt to switch to RO water. Tap water here runs ~500 ppm TDS. Tank water with the current exchanges is ~360 ppm TDS. I know if I keep it up, the erosions will get worse and I'll have to treat chemically. The only thing that works is eSHa discus disease treatment; the last time I tried metronidazole, I ran a three week course of the stuff, with absolutely no success.

What's really strange is that I had these two in separate tanks up until ~2 months ago; the smaller one was in a 55 gallon, and both tanks (the 120 and the 55) were filled and refreshed with treated tap water, absolutely no RO. The smaller one has been fine, up until it was moved to the larger tank. The one nostril started eroding after 6-7 weeks, and in the past week- since I've started moving over to RO + magnesium sulfate- the erosions got worse, and the sensory pits started getting inflamed.



Black circle is specifically an erosion. Note the visible nostril- the other one is fine. Both nostrils on the larger one are quite bad, but never change. Note also the sensory pits; they were not like this yesterday. Again, I'm swapping out 10% of the tank water every day with 50/50 RO/tap.

I'm inclined to believe the RO water is specifically responsible for this recent worsening, but the eroded nostrils weren't there when I moved him over; the larger one has had eroded nostrils so long that I've begun to think they might not grow back even if those conditions are rectified.

Filtration is a 29-gallon sump with massive amounts of Kaldnes K2 media. Nitrates are currently <20, but have been substantially higher in the past- although, again, these lesions are new to the small one, and I've been trying hard to keep nitrates as low as reasonably possible. I just don't have any way in the sump to be growing pothos and stuff. pH is in the pH 7 range, I'm an analytical chemist by training and these damned API droplet tests are useless when one reads higher than 7.6 but the high range reads lower than 7.4.

I don't know what else to try, other than just dumping the tank, getting rid of the rocks and gravel, and starting over from new. Anyone with great ideas, I'm wide open to listening.

 

[duanes]

To me, a 60-70% water change schedule is not adequate for soft water fish like oscars, when the tap water has high TDS, and with high nitrate.
My schedule in a hard water area, is 30-40% every other day (120%+ per week), to ward off the chronic effects, and brings nitrate down to <5ppm.
Of course in a farming or rural area high nitrate in tap is the norm (My water came from the tap at 0.02 nitrate)
But I must admit, even with that schedule, I found keeping Cichlids from the soft water areas like Amazonia, or South America east of the Andes, not realistic.
So back about 30 years ago, I switched focus to those cichlids that hail from mineral rich areas like Central America, and those from west of the Andes, my fish keeping became more satisfying.
RO and rain water are of course (if available are options)
One of my holy grail cichlids was Uaru fernandenzyepezi, but with my tap, it was never an option, and still isn't.

One other option for controlling nitrate is providing heavily planted refugiums that naturally use nitrate between every other day substantial water changes.
As an example my main 180 gal cichlid tank, uses a 125 gal heavily planted refugium (sump), with aquatic, semi emergent, and even terrestrial plantings.
And although large cichlids tend to prevent aquatic planting in their main tank, terrestrial plants are often tolerated.

Above is the sump for my main cichlid tank, and as you can see, to be effective at using nitrate, the plants must far out weigh the fish.
The sump is thick with water lilies, Vallisneria, Hyrdrophilla, and even mangrove trees. I have also found papyrus (umbrella palm) to be an effective nitrate user.
I tried Pothos a while, but to even make a dent, the entire wall behind the tank needed to be covered.

Above a papyrus refugium.
One of the plants I find that can be floated in a main tank, is Philodendron. below

Most of these plants are easily accessible as common "house" plants, and tolerate indoor settings.
But in the end, unless these options (above) are available, and useable, choosing the right species that are adaptable to the components of your tap water is the most realistic.
I stopped keeping Oscars in the mid 80s for this high pH high mineral content reason, and chose between the 100 or so Central American species, those that agreed with my mineral similar tap water, and my stress level declined significantly.

 

[aussieman57]

Another option would be to employ biocenosis bags in your sump. BCB bags consist of calcined clay and laterite. These bags when first employed will soak up so much ammonia that your nitrates will decrease. Once the anaerobic process of the bags kicks in (takes several months) the anaerobes will start lowering your nitrate levels. Prior to employing BCB's I could never get my nitrates below 20 ppm. That was with plants & water changes. I could reduce nitrates to 10ppm with the water change but it would pop right back to 20ppm in a couple of days. Now my nitrates sit between trace & 5ppm. You can Google this process "Dr. Novak BCB". I found a better source of laterite; AquaLat which I introduce Kevin to earlier this year. Much easier to work with than the powdered form. An added benefit of this process is the iron in the Laterite does wonders for plant growth.

 

[Rocksor]

360 ppm TDS is still pretty high for an oscar (long term).

When you treated with esha or metro, was the treatment water based? Dr. Edward Noga suggests the following treatment using metro

1. Bath
a. Add 19mg/gallon and treat for 3 hours. Repeat every other day for 3 treatments.

2. Prolonged Immersion
a. Add 25mg/gallon and treat once daily for a total of 3 times.
b. Add 95mg/gallon and treat every other day for three days.

3. via feed
25 mg/Kg of body weight/day for 5 to 10 days, or 100 mg/kg of body weight for 3 days. Retreat once if required.

Have you tried feeding CZ Clear via syringe? (You can get this on Amazon) That's a metro based treatment combined with a yellow antibiotic (possibly oxytetracline). Make the paste using epsom salt solution (about 1/2 cup distilled water mixed with 3/4 teaspoon of epsom salt)

 

[jjohnwm]

I stopped keeping Oscars in the mid 80s for this high pH high mineral content reason, and chose between the 100 or so Central American species, those that agreed with my mineral similar tap water, and my stress level declined significantly.

This ^ is it, in a nutshell. Determine what kind of water you have...and then keep fish that want/need that kind of water. So simple, so obvious; and yet so universally ignored.

For the past couple of summers, I have utilized snow melt water to fill a number of outdoor stock tanks; this water is neutral and very soft, whereas my tap water is very hard and alkaline. My fish are suited to my tap water and accustomed to frequent large water changes with water straight out of the tap...from my well to my aquariums. Concerned with suddenly shocking these hard-water-loving fish by plopping them into what is essentially pure rainwater, I mix the snow melt about 50/50 with tap water; actually, with waste water from a water change on my indoor tanks. Believe me, it went against the grain for me to utilize old "dirty" water for anything other than watering the garden, but when you are on a well and already draw hundreds of gallons per week just for your aquariums, you are loathe to suddenly double or triple that demand even temporarily.

So for a few days I was spending a lot of time and effort "making water" in sufficient quantities for a series of stock tanks. What a monumental PITA! And my efforts paled in comparison to those of aquarists utilizing RO apparatus, chemicals and who-knows-what other arcane methods to manufacture suitable water for their tanks. I cannot imagine why anyone would go to such extremes year-round...simply to keep fish that don't happen to fit their normal water parameters...when there are always plenty of beautiful and interesting fish well suited to those same parameters.

Merely dechlorinating city water is borderline unacceptable to me. If I had to do all that other crap on a constant ongoing basis...say perhaps if I had water that didn't allow the keeping of any species of fish...I flat out would not keep aquaria. This is supposed to be fun. Why fight nature?

 

[duanes]

The problem with treating with meds and/or trying to cure certain diseases in fish, is that it is in most cases its a temporary fix.
Ick is easy, once you eliminate the last protozoal individual, its potentially gone, but......
In order to keep many fish diseases away, you must eliminate the source of the problem, or it comes back, because certain bacteria are ubiquitous under certain conditions.
The bacteria that causes HITH, thrives in mineral rich, high TDS, pH of 7.5 ish and above water, so if that's the tap water you are given, you will need to constantly medicate, and do a radical water change schedule or that bacteria will automatically reappear..
Species from Amazonia and other mineral poor, low pH waters have not to evolved immunity to these type bacteria because their natural waters are hostile to these bacterial phages.
In Central America or the African rift lakes, where species have evolved in an 8.2 plus, highly mineralized waters, immunity has evolved thru survival of the fittest over 10s of thousands (perhaps millions) of years . Any of those without inane immunity simple die off.
And a few generations, even 100 years of aquarium strain breeding, does not alter that continuum.

 

[neutrino]

I won't try to diagnose the problem from a distance. I've observed that whenever HITH comes up the path of least resistance is to revert to pet theories about fish keeping and the condition itself, while the answer isn't always straightforward: "As aquarium diseases go, it’s quite an enigma. We can recognise the symptoms, albeit in the latter stages of an outbreak, but defining the cause is much more of a challenge. Treatment is more difficult again. There are pathogens associated with the condition, diplomonad species of Hexamita, Spironucleus and Octomitus, but whether these are causes or opportunists making the most out of a bad situation is unclear... Causes of HLLE have been long debated, although nobody can say with certainty what is the main trigger." (see link)

Just a few thoughts, though, without saying I have the answer. Nitrate levels are a debatable subject with varying opinions and recommendations. Lowering nitrates never hurts, but if you're at 20 or under I question that being the issue by itself-- for 20 years I've kept nitrates under 10, typically 5-ish, but in decades of fishkeeping they've been all over the map and I've only ever had a single, mild case of HITH, quickly cured; meanwhile, how many thousands upon thousands in the hobby keep healthy fish in ignorant bliss of nitrates over 20, not to mention Oscars in pH over 7, ignorant bliss of TDS, and varied (within reason) hardness?

That it's getting worse after RO and adding magnesium might suggest a possible water mineral imbalance? Typically you'd see this as an issue with reef or planted tanks (where a ratio of something like 3:1 calcium to magnesium is suggested), but I have known a few cases where addressing calcium/magnesium balance healed up persistent sensory pit issues. Just a thought.

Fish food preferences have also been "long debated," but does improvement by adding red wiggler worms suggest a nutritional component? From the PFK article: "Other factors discussed include nutritional deficiencies, especially key vitamins and dietary iodine. Improvements in nutrition have been shown to benefit affected fish."

Hikari has its fans, but here's the ingredients list I find for Cichlid Gold: Fish meal, wheat flour, flaked corn, brewers dried yeast, corn gluten meal, wheat starch, rice bran, then spirulina and supplements. Essentially cereal with some fish and yeast added-- compare this to products like NLS, Northfin, etc. (Long story, but years ago I did a lot of fish food testing and saw an improvement after getting off Hikari.)

Not the only possibilities, just a couple that your account suggests to my mind.

 

[aussieman57]

The problem with treating with meds and/or trying to cure certain diseases in fish, is that it is in most cases its a temporary fix.
Ick is easy, once you eliminate the last protozoal individual, its potentially gone, but......
In order to keep many fish diseases away, you must eliminate the source of the problem, or it comes back, because certain bacteria are ubiquitous under certain conditions.
The bacteria that causes HITH, thrives in mineral rich, high TDS, pH of 7.5 ish and above water, so if that's the tap water you are given, you will need to constantly medicate, and do a radical water change schedule or that bacteria will automatically reappear..
Species from Amazonia and other mineral poor, low pH waters have not to evolved immunity to these type bacteria because their natural waters are hostile to these bacterial phages.
In Central America or the African rift lakes, where species have evolved in an 8.2 plus, highly mineralized waters, immunity has evolved thru survival of the fittest over 10s of thousands (perhaps millions) of years . Any of those without inane immunity simple die off.
And a few generations, even 100 years of aquarium strain breeding, does not alter that continuum.

Well said & the reason I too have also switched over to concentrate on CA Cichlids.