SALT AND RTC'S????????

[bigcol]

Hi all, ive done alot of research on this but still stumped, i really need ur help.

My largest rtc most defo has internal parasites, the water quality spiked like crazy all over the place really, ph 6.0----amm is now lowered to near 0 but was off the charts last week (above 8.0ppm) nitrites are slowly going up 0.50 (not good but its a sign that there is BB to deal with the amm in the water) and nitrates are at 40ppm have been from the begining. My question is really, can i add salt to the water to help get rid of these parasites that are clearly causing my rtc to breath faster than usual, the inside of his mouth is all red and what looks to me like ulsers!!!! he still eats squid but not massive portions like he used to, hes roughly 2ft in length but lost alot of weight over the past couple of weeks. I did notice gill curl starting to form so drastic action was required, for the past few days ive been doing a 50% water change adding declorinator for every change, the tank is an 8x2x2 so i add 15ml to deal with the chlorine and other harmfull metals in the water. I also added a bottle of freindly bacteria to try help speed up the cycle as something obviously killed the BB in my filteration. I have more than enough bio media in my sump to deal with the load and there is more than enough oxygen/circulation in the water too. The temp in the tank is 22dc sometimes reaching 24-26 (its very cold out these days) temp does not fluctuate all the time it usually sticks to 22-24. This all probably looks a little messed up in the way its wrote but im trying to give as much info as poss so i can get an instant solution to my problem. I have salt in the med cabinet but not sure weither to use it or not as i know catfish are scaleless and it can do more harm than good but also know that the salt is good for getting rid of internal parasites.

Please help guys im really stuck on this 1 and dont want to start using crazy amounts of meds Thanks in advance

 

[bigcol]

Ok i found this, thank you lupin for making this easier as my earlier post was all over the place with lots of thoughts here and there so i will try my best to answer all of these questions as detailed as poss


Q,1. What is the size of your tank?

A,1. 8x2x2 236G/ 1200L approx

Q,2. What are your water parameters? State the brand of test kit used.

A,2. PH=6.0.....AMMONIA=0.25.....NITRATE=0.50......NITRATE=40ppm. Test kit used is an API high range low range test kit. The ammonia a week ago was off the charts, there was a massive spike in toxins.

Q,3. Is your aquarium set up freshwater or brackish water?

A,3. setup is freshwater but heard somewhere should be slighlty brakish???

Q,4. How long the aquarium has been set up?

A,4. Approx 7 mnths due to a house move.

Q,5. What fish do you have? How many are in your tank? How big are they? How long have you had them?

A,5. 3xrtc, 2@ 1.5' largest@ 2'... 1xcommon pleco@ 11"... 1xmarble catfish@ 1.5'... 1xalbino oscar@ 10"... 2xred bellied pacu@ 11"each... 1xalbino channel fish@ 1.5'. Thats 9 fish in total and ive had all fish for 1 yr, pacu and channell fish 6mnths or less.

Q,6. Were the fish placed under quarantine period (minus the first batch from the point wherein the tank is ready to accommodate the inhabitants)?

A,6. No tank big enough to quarantine.

Q,7. What temperature is the tank water currently?

A,7. currently at 22c, trying to get it upto 24-26c.

Q,8. Are there live plants in the aquarium?

A,8. No live plants at all.

Q,9. What filter are you using? State brand, maintenance routine and power capacity.

A,9. Im using a 4x1x18" sump with 3 baffles 4 chambers. There is filter wool and sponges (jad matting) in the 1st chamber, bio balls and lots of ceramic noodles in the 2nd chamber, scrubbies more ceramic noodles and an anti ammonia media (looks like tiny shards of green slate in a sack) in the 3rd chamber and finally the last chamber has a 5000LPH pond pump. I also have an Fluval fx5 running on the sump. I clean both out every 5-6mnths with water from the tank. I have also put some extra filteration at the left side of the tank for extra circulation, 1xfluval 4+ and a bubble block.

Q,10. Any other equipment used (aside from heater and filter which are two very important components of the tank)?

A,10. No other equipment used.

Q,11. Does your aquarium receive natural sunlight at any given part of the day? What is your lighting schedule (assuming you do not rely on sunlight for our viewing pleasure)?

A,11. There is natural sunlight that hits the tank at around 4-5pm in the evening usually lasting around 1.5hrs depending on the sky conditions, if its constant i tend to close the blinds on the windows to stop it blasting in. Im using a normal dual lighting system which u would find on any garage or kitchen ceiling, it has 1 4ft neon blue bulb in it, i did have to white bulbs running but decided to remove them. All bulbs i use are aquarium freindly, i never use household tubes for aquarium lighting.

Q,12. When did you perform your last water change and how much water was changed? How often do you change your water? Do you vacuum the substrate?

A,12. My last water change was 2 days ago 2/10/2009, I done a 50% change for approx 3 days prior and on the day i mentioned i also syphoned the gravel on of those occasions. I do a 50% water change every sunday afternoon and only just started using Waterlife poolshield dechlorinator and Waterlife bacterlife freindly bacteria to try speed up the bb.

Q,13. What foods do you provide your fish? What is the feeding schedule?

A,13. Squid, muscles, prawns every 2-3 days, any left over food is taken out within 30-45mins.

Q,14. What unusual signs have you observed in your fish?

A,14. My largest rtc has heavy breathing and a redness in his mouth, also looks like ulser formations inside the mouth, Gills also started to curl but are not getting any worse as far. 1 of my smaller rtc's is also showing the same signs but without the gill curl, he also has a redness next to his tail, looks like a red bloch (veins).

Q,15. Have you treated your fish ahead of diagnosis? If so, what treatments did you use? State your reasons for planning ahead of proper diagnosis.

A,15. I havnt treated them with anything yet as i thought it might/could make matters worse.


Hope this helps alot, this is all the information i have at present, if there is any further progress or spikes i will be sure to post them and thanks to lupin and othermembers for making this easier.

 

[bigcol]

Ive just took a couple of pics to help u guys further hope they help as they arnt the best quality.

Notice the redness, this is 1 of my 1.5' rtc, now ive noticed the same mark on my 2' rtc the 1 with the breathing probs, heres another pic, a close up.

Please guys try and help me out here im at my wits end with thinking of a solution, ive never seen anything like this before so dont really know what the best course of action would be apart from water changes.

 

[markx2005]

bump

 

[bigcol]

Thanks for the bump mark, so while im here i might aswell add that im really getting desperate now, the redness is spreading on the skin of 2 of y rtc's the largest and 1 of the 1.5fters, they are both breathing rapidly and doing a strange barking movement with the gills flaring wide open along with the mouth. C'mon guys what is this illness i really need to get ontop of this thing asap. I know it started with the water params spiking and im slowly getting ontop of that, very slowly, but if i dont treat them soon im afraid they will die

 

[Lupin]

Hi Col,

I got your PM.

Firstly, I looked into your water parameters. Your ammonia currently is not toxic if your pH is actually 6.0. Most of it turned ammonium when your water is acidic so it is unlikely to be an issue at this moment as the ammonia is far less enough to intoxicate your fish. Your nitrite on the other hand, needs to be addressed as it can intoxicate your fish. What is the average level of your nitrate? Even 40 ppm is still high for most fish.

Your setup needs not be brackish. None of your fish requires brackish conditions. There are too many people out there who spread around misinformation without further analyzing the actual needs of your fish just for the sake of being "helpful" to one's need.

As for your quarantine setup, it does not have to be a tank. If you can get a spare tub big enough to serve as a quarantine, then it will work just fine. We do need a quarantine setup all the time regardless of the circumstances otherwise you risk losing all your fish for various reasons if we don't.

I looked at the symptoms and everything stems from very poor water quality. Do you also have abrasive decorations? Do you notice the fish scratching their mouths and other body areas? Your options here are either reduce the number of your fish further or do more water changes. Only clean water will help rectify those issues along with a 0.3% solution of salt which is 3 teaspoons per gallon. If you have those gravel, I'd rather remove those and maintain a barebottom setup if your fish excrete heavy amounts of wastes.

 

[bigcol]

Hi Col,

I got your PM.

Firstly, I looked into your water parameters. Your ammonia currently is not toxic if your pH is actually 6.0. Most of it turned ammonium when your water is acidic so it is unlikely to be an issue at this moment as the ammonia is far less enough to intoxicate your fish. Your nitrite on the other hand, needs to be addressed as it can intoxicate your fish. What is the average level of your nitrate? Even 40 ppm is still high for most fish.

Your setup needs not be brackish. None of your fish requires brackish conditions. There are too many people out there who spread around misinformation without further analyzing the actual needs of your fish just for the sake of being "helpful" to one's need.

As for your quarantine setup, it does not have to be a tank. If you can get a spare tub big enough to serve as a quarantine, then it will work just fine. We do need a quarantine setup all the time regardless of the circumstances otherwise you risk losing all your fish for various reasons if we don't.

I looked at the symptoms and everything stems from very poor water quality. Do you also have abrasive decorations? Do you notice the fish scratching their mouths and other body areas? Your options here are either reduce the number of your fish further or do more water changes. Only clean water will help rectify those issues along with a 0.3% solution of salt which is 3 teaspoons per gallon. If you have those gravel, I'd rather remove those and maintain a barebottom setup if your fish excrete heavy amounts of wastes.

Hi Lupin, TY for getting back to me on this 1 i was really starting to worry about the condition of my fish. I will take time to answer all of ur questions to the best of my ability.

1. amonia and nitrites are/were lowering slowly but when i left the water changes for a day then they started to rise slowly again, as for the nitrates, even though the other params have been slowly going down the nitrates have allways been at 40ppm, its the ph i am having trouble with stabilizing as for some reason it will not level out and stick it just seems to plumet to the the bottom of the chart within a day or 2.

2. The brakish water did have me a bit confused as ive never had to use brakish before so yeah i agree with u there, a few too many people decide to speak before they think these days, i prefer to answer from experience rather than thought of mind or a hunch. So brackish is a big NO NO .

3. Quarantine setups has never been needed for my fish before, maybe ur right and its something i should seriously consider doing, a tub large enough imo for my fish size would most defo be a large concrete tub that u see on lots of building sites around these parts, they do require alot of cleaning and attention b4 using ofcourse so its something i will most defo look into.

4. The water quality is the problem, well i most certainly agree with u on that 1, i noticed my 2ft rtc breathing fast 1 wk ago so thats when i tested the water and found params to spike badly and here we are today at this stage, its amazing how fast things can go wrong if its taking for granted that all is fine. The only decor i have in the tank is 3 large rocks which ive had for a long time, no sharp edges at all just basiclly gravel and those rocks, Yeah the 2 rtc's in question do scratch more than often rubbing against the gravel and rocks as if they are really itchy at times and getting really agitated but this is only since i noticed the spike so i guess u could say that i noticed things straight away instead of ignoring the obvious. , im doing alot more water changes than usual now i was doing big ones for atleast 4 days before i decided to leave for a day or so and see what happened, after 2 days with no water changes params started to rise again but the ph was still low, i only noticed the ph rise with large changes, so yeah ur right, little and more often maybe the way to go. U mention adding salt and removing the substrate maybe even reducing stock.........

Lupin thats a hell of a lot of salt matey, 3 teaspoons per G, can i ask is that in US G or UK G?? what type of salt would you recommend?? and will this help with the rtc's illness?? its really starting to look like a gill and skin problem that doesnt seem to be getting any better as the days go on.


Im currently thinking about getting rid of the 2xpacu i have and also the channel fish and the oscar, when i syphon the gravel it is very clean so not sure weither to remove the substrate or not as yet, im really trying to concentrate o n getting the water params correct. maybe it would be a good idea to take it out, thats something i will look into anyway. TY again Lupin for getting back to me on this 1 its really helpfull of u and kind to respond, hopefully all willl be well with them soon, with ur help and advice i think sooner than we all think .

I will keep u all updated on any large or small changes

 

[Lupin]

If your pH is not stabilizing, then you may need to look into your KH (carbonate hardness) and GH (general hardness). Please determine the tests using API liquid drops. Your hardness levels should not be equivalent to less than 4 degrees which is ridiculously soft that with your nitrate elevating from time to time, your pH dangerously drops easily. Might I suggest you go with calcium carbonate. It is easily obtained by using crushed corals and seashells. Your other sources are limestones and calcium tablets by Caltrate. Tums can turn your water "liquid rock" almost immediately and has a tendency to cloud the water due to high sucrose content however no lasting harm is done anyway.

If not a tub, you can always look for kiddie pools but buy the kiddie pools that are not inflatable or they'll puncture with your catfish's sharp spines located on their pectoral fins. Your other option is to use large drums sliced in half vertically. It does help a lot although the width is a little narrow so kiddie pools may be a much better option to choose.

I'd get all the substrate out now. Your fish continue to scratch which means we have more things to suspect that had been overlooked before. It is likely flukes is also involved in the process. Only praziquantel can treat that. See a separate thread I posted for UK folks so you can source the necessary treatments.

The gravel may seem clean to you but it may not be what you think it is. I made that similar assumption before only to end up with excessive clouding from my constant vacuuming. The excess organic matter accumulating is easy to overlook.

Actually, the dosage of salt (sodium chloride) should be added slowly and carefully dissolved as I earlier advised. The amount of salt may seem a lot to you but this is one way combined with praziquantel for us to destroy other suspected pathogens involved and neutralize the nitrite's toxic effects. Dissolution is one step many people forget that they lose their bottom dwellers in the process. I made that similar mistake before but I did not regret it as I learned from my mistakes.

 

[bigcol]

If your pH is not stabilizing, then you may need to look into your KH (carbonate hardness) and GH (general hardness). Please determine the tests using API liquid drops. Your hardness levels should not be equivalent to less than 4 degrees which is ridiculously soft that with your nitrate elevating from time to time, your pH dangerously drops easily. Might I suggest you go with calcium carbonate. It is easily obtained by using crushed corals and seashells. Your other sources are limestones and calcium tablets by Caltrate. Tums can turn your water "liquid rock" almost immediately and has a tendency to cloud the water due to high sucrose content however no lasting harm is done anyway.

If not a tub, you can always look for kiddie pools but buy the kiddie pools that are not inflatable or they'll puncture with your catfish's sharp spines located on their pectoral fins. Your other option is to use large drums sliced in half vertically. It does help a lot although the width is a little narrow so kiddie pools may be a much better option to choose.

I'd get all the substrate out now. Your fish continue to scratch which means we have more things to suspect that had been overlooked before. It is likely flukes is also involved in the process. Only praziquantel can treat that. See a separate thread I posted for UK folks so you can source the necessary treatments.

The gravel may seem clean to you but it may not be what you think it is. I made that similar assumption before only to end up with excessive clouding from my constant vacuuming. The excess organic matter accumulating is easy to overlook.

Actually, the dosage of salt (sodium chloride) should be added slowly and carefully dissolved as I earlier advised. The amount of salt may seem a lot to you but this is one way combined with praziquantel for us to destroy other suspected pathogens involved and neutralize the nitrite's toxic effects. Dissolution is one step many people forget that they lose their bottom dwellers in the process. I made that similar mistake before but I did not regret it as I learned from my mistakes.

Ok i will get hold of all the stuff you suggested here and the substrate will be gone this after noon, im assuming u mean the rocks too so they will also go. I understood what u meant with the salt it just seemed alot, i forgot about the actual scale of things thnking about my rtc's and how to cure them, your the expert on this sort of thing so im gona go with what ever u suggest. A kh + gh test was suggested on aquaria central network, something u have just clarified for me as i didnt understand what it meant so thanks for that.

Ok Lupin, i will get on the substrate asap, as for the rest, well i cant really do anything about that sort of stuff untill tomorrow as that is the only day i have to myself but im on it now and feel a little lighter knowing what to do. Once i have all the ingredients and have the substrate out i will be sure to post and let u know of all/any progress good or bad..............

Hopefully great news TY again Lupin

 

[bigcol]

just done a quick water test before i leave results are= PH=6.8.....amm=0.50.....nitrite=1.0 and nitrates=20ppm.

I did do a water change last night so im sure thats why they have changed so much, im assuming that the resuklts later on will be considerably different so i will post them after i take the substrate out and maybe do another 25% water change.