Saltwater Setup Questions and Advice

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kissarmy39

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Jul 24, 2009
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South Orange, NJ
Hello All,

I have decided that once I move out of my apartment into a more permanent setting and save up the money I will make the step of converting from freshwater to saltwater tank. I have been researching and feel i have about 10% of the knowledge needed to truly set up a healthy saltwater reef tank.

I currently have a mixed 55g cichlid tank with 2 fluval 305's, each with surface skimmers, 2 whisper 300 air pumps for 4 air stones/bricks, a heater for a 75g tank, and 48inch T5-HO Actinic and Daylight 10k bulbs for lighting.

Eventually, I will be selling the tank stand, decorations, on craigslist and will sell the fish to a lfs for much lower value for store credit.

I plan on keeping the 2 fluvals, the lights, and the general supplies (nets, scrapers, etc..) for the reef tank. I am aiming to buy a 90g reef ready tank and stand on craigslist, I will wait until a good deal comes along but I want to know what a good deal would be...

However, here is where my multitude of questions comes in:

1) I understand cannister filters can be detrimental to reef tanks especially with nitrates. Yet, is there anything I can use the fluvals for? If so, what media is appropriate for them? I was thinking at the very least use them to create more water flow and leave them almost bare, plus the surface skimmers could only help with surface film? Here is a link to some filter media i was thinking of for the reef tank: http://www.valuepetsupplies.com/Aqua...-p4467086.html

2) Are air pumps with air stones/bricks a huge no-no in saltwater reef tanks or sumps?

3) While I know DIY projects can have awesome results for your wallet, your tank, and your self-accomplishment, I am not handy at all, I do not plan on building my own lights, sump/refugium, skimmer, return, etc... Therefore for my refugium/sump I was going to use something along the lines of: http://www.aquabuys.com/page/aqb/PRO...afuge_sump_pro

Is this garbage or a decent product?

4) Would it be better to just get one of those suction cup refigums and put it in the main tank in a hidden area?

5) For a refugium/sump, how do the amphipods and other nutrients get back up into the main tank?

6) Should I buy a refugium sump, i was going to put refugium mud and live sand with a few pieces of live rock, then I would put in amphipods, different types of macoalgage, grazing snails, mini stars, copepods, and reef worms...is this overkill? I ask this because there is a start up refugium pack on ipsf.com...

7) What are the thoughts on UV sterlizers? Especially for someone who isnt handy enough to create a custom uv sterlizer to protein skimmer loop.

8) What are the thoughts on DeIonization Filters and R/O filters? Are they always needed, are they hard to maintain? Also, please explain overflow and auto-fills...

9) I feel overwhelmed with all the pumps, filters, returns, and intakes that are associated with saltwater reef tanks, however, I want to learn and understand how they work. I hear horror stories about power outages and peoples tanks/sumps flooding. I do not want this to happen, how can I circumvent this or make it a non factor?

My goal is to understand how the saltwater tank setup filters and plumbing works, and what items are mandatory, recommeneded, and completely optional. I know there are many DIY ideas but please remember I suck with that kind of stuff and also I am willing to wait, research, and save money to get all the proper set up and equpment needed for a lively and healthy large tank.

Also, remember that I am not planning on making my first purchase for another few months (minimum) due to lack of knowledge, funding, and living space. SO please dont say I am not qualified to own a reef tank, because I know I am nowhere close.

Thanks all, I know this is a long one so sorry in advance, looking forward to some answers/advice in the responses. Thanks again!

KISSARMY
 
WoW... haha you have just spilled your brains all over these last few threads... Maybe talking on the phone would be better hah. Alright so lets start with your plans. You plan on getting a reef. Do you plan on keeping fish in it? If so the first thing we need to get done is getting the tank and cycling. The live rock will not be hurt by the amonia and high nitrites/nitrates. That is what gets the bacteria to grow, so no worries there. I don't use RO water, i just use my tap. You should get your tap water tested to see if its good enough quailty you wont need anything special just water dechlorinator. With that said when i set up a tank i fill up with the hose. Then i dump in the salt and mix. Coralife salt mix is the best. It clears up the fastest out of all of them. Then you want to get the temp right, then drop liverock in. I will then grab some shrimp inside a panty hose and let it rock for a couple days. Repeat for 1 week doing little water changes. By then my tank is useally cycled. Then i add fish, you should have fish in your tank and let it mature a little before doing the whole reef. This is just a better to be safe than 2,000 dollars sorry. Thats your basic set up actions. Now lets talk about the filtration. You want a fuge? Man I dont favor those but thats because i dont run reefs... I ran a wet/dry on my reef and it worked great.

http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4392+4409&pcatid=4409

You could actually use this as a mini fuge and skimmer all in one. Or keep the bio bale and this could run your whole tank. I hate HOB skimmers but i found the smaller one runs my 50gallon filtration and skimming. Filtration gets really personal and its up to you. I go for effective yet convenient. Mr.reef24 and other members will be able to help you with the actually reef part. I only know the basic's. But predators and fish/LR i can help all you need.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296357

Check out my filtration, simple and effective. I had corals growing in my predator tank.


http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302708&page=2

Here is a tank that was setup and cycled all in 3 hours. :D Ashlee is my girlfriend
 
Thanks Canuck! That info and those links definitely let my mind start running with different ideas haha. I was thinking about a fuge sump just because I find them awesome and extremely interesting and they seem to be an awesome way to consistently grow pods. Do you recommend adding base LR then live sand?

I plan on letting my tank cycle for a few weeks (depending on water quality and other factors etc..) Once it is completely cycled I will let it go another few days to be sure and then get a cleaning crew to handle the algae while getting 2 starter fish in a quarantine tank for about 1.5-2 weeks. After this I will test the water and add the fish if all the parameters are solid, after another week or two I would add 3-4 larger reef safe inverts (not just the small mini star cleaner types), and then let my tank rest for 2 weeks and then start adding some more fish and inverts, all friendly and reef safe of course. Quick question, any idea when its proper to add pods to the tank and refugium?
 
kissarmy39;3941915; said:
Thanks Canuck! That info and those links definitely let my mind start running with different ideas haha. I was thinking about a fuge sump just because I find them awesome and extremely interesting and they seem to be an awesome way to consistently grow pods. Do you recommend adding base LR then live sand?

I plan on letting my tank cycle for a few weeks (depending on water quality and other factors etc..) Once it is completely cycled I will let it go another few days to be sure and then get a cleaning crew to handle the algae while getting 2 starter fish in a quarantine tank for about 1.5-2 weeks. After this I will test the water and add the fish if all the parameters are solid, after another week or two I would add 3-4 larger reef safe inverts (not just the small mini star cleaner types), and then let my tank rest for 2 weeks and then start adding some more fish and inverts, all friendly and reef safe of course. Quick question, any idea when its proper to add pods to the tank and refugium?
Click to expand...


You seem really bothered by these pods.... you want a mandrin goby dont you? LoL a fuge would be cool but thats once again your personal deal. They are to much maintenice and to much of a hassle for me to set up. They couldnt filter my tank and my massive bio load. For you it could be fine though, make sure you leave room for an in sump protien skimmer though. In sump skimmers are 2wice as good as HOB's. You could actually do a successfull reef with the right clean up crew, fish, skimmer, and live rock with flow. All you would need is 100 pounds of live rock, a badass protien skimmer, and a lot of flow. You wouldnt need any extra filtration. There are so many different ideas to play with your really just going to have to work it out yourself. Then come up with more detailed questions, that would have informational answers and not opinions.

But yes when you set up the tank , add water. Dechlorinate. Add salt and mix, then open bag of live sand and set the whole bag inside the tank. Pour slowly after water has fully consumed the bag. Then add live rock once the tempeture is correct. The cycle should begin. If you add 90/90 (LR/LS)your tank could cycle in a couple hours, you never know.

When do you plan on getting this tank?
 
Here is what my ideal set up would be:

125g glass bowfront with T5 HO lights (a 10k, 20k, Color Max, and 2 HO marine actinics), 4.5 inch DSB with 90lbs of LR, 2 fluvals set up (for what purpose still has to be determined), overflow to sump (55g?) with in sump skimmer, bio balls, and 40 lbs of LR, 4.5 inch dsb refugium with cheato & other beneficial macroalgage/plants, 1 hermit crab, 2 snails, mini stars (they reproduce based on space), and TONS of various pods. Fuge has 10k compact light with low actinic bulb as well. I would like a slow kalkwasser drip and RODI unit but you have helped me out realizing it isnt a necessity and can be replaced with proper water changes and well mixed water replacements. in the main tank I would also have 2-3 high powered power heads (depends on LR placement and how many stagnant areas there are). Of course the must haves in thermometer, heater, refractometer, and diesel testing kid.

I plan on getting this tank in a few months-one year, waiting to save up the proper finances, and i feel like i barely tipped the scale of knowledge for a reef tank so I plan on researching and doing the whole tank right as best (and budget conscious) as possible. Then once I have the budget, time, knowledge, and a designated space its all about finding deals on craigslist, ebay, auction sites, here, and local fish stores and warehouses.

And yes you are correct with the mandarin goby, they are awesome looking and I saw one at my lfs and I was ammused the whole time watching him. Also, I find the potential synergy between a main tank and refugium awesome. If done right for a reef tank it can provide your tank inverts fish and corals with pods and plankton with little adjustment on your end. Also, if you make the lights opposite of your main tank light cycle you can help offset the PH swings at night once the reef is more stocked.

As always Canuck I have a few more questions, sorry for picking your brain so much today haha:

For a 125 bowfront tank how big of a sump/fuge would I need and how do I know how much water is too much (i.e. if the power were to go off, how do i make sure my overflow and tank/sump doesnt overflow)?

Also, I have 2 fluval 305's, I understand loading them with media can cause excess nitrates and do more harm then good, they each have surface skimmers intakes so I feel that at the least they could (along with the overflow) help with surface film, provide more efficient gas exchanges, increase water flow, and slightly increase water volume.

Would It be good to just load the media baskets with:
1 chemi pure carbon bags (last 3-6 months) per cannister,
1 nitrate /phosphate remover per cannister,
2 spongers per filter cannister,
Then just crushed coral and LR in remaining space/baskets.

OR should they just be bare and used to water flow and volume?

Also should they be filtering in the sump or in the main tank? If its the sump is it before of after the fuge and skimmer, if its the main tank, should they be away from the overflow or it doesnt matter?

Would adding these filters and there media affect my fuge in negative matter (hurt pod population and make macroalgae go sexual and over run my tank)?

Lastly, I know in FW and reptile tanks (namely turtles) you can add cuttle bone to increase calcium in the water as they dissolve over time, could I add cuttle bones to the sump or fuge or even crush them up and put them in the fluvals? or is this just a poor idea and wouldnt really influence calcium levels too much?

Also, I have no idea how much power in terms of pumps and gph i would need for this set up and how much this would run on an avg electric bill so any estimate would be helpful haha.

Thank you again Canuck, sorry for the long essays and many wuestions but you are putting wikipedia to shame for your help and knowledge hahaha
 
kissarmy39;3942768; said:
Here is what my ideal set up would be:

125g glass bowfront with T5 HO lights (a 10k, 20k, Color Max, and 2 HO marine actinics), 4.5 inch DSB with 90lbs of LR, 2 fluvals set up (for what purpose still has to be determined), overflow to sump (55g?) with in sump skimmer, bio balls, and 40 lbs of LR, 4.5 inch dsb refugium with cheato & other beneficial macroalgage/plants, 1 hermit crab, 2 snails, mini stars (they reproduce based on space), and TONS of various pods. Fuge has 10k compact light with low actinic bulb as well. I would like a slow kalkwasser drip and RODI unit but you have helped me out realizing it isnt a necessity and can be replaced with proper water changes and well mixed water replacements. in the main tank I would also have 2-3 high powered power heads (depends on LR placement and how many stagnant areas there are). Of course the must haves in thermometer, heater, refractometer, and diesel testing kid.

I plan on getting this tank in a few months-one year, waiting to save up the proper finances, and i feel like i barely tipped the scale of knowledge for a reef tank so I plan on researching and doing the whole tank right as best (and budget conscious) as possible. Then once I have the budget, time, knowledge, and a designated space its all about finding deals on craigslist, ebay, auction sites, here, and local fish stores and warehouses.

And yes you are correct with the mandarin goby, they are awesome looking and I saw one at my lfs and I was ammused the whole time watching him. Also, I find the potential synergy between a main tank and refugium awesome. If done right for a reef tank it can provide your tank inverts fish and corals with pods and plankton with little adjustment on your end. Also, if you make the lights opposite of your main tank light cycle you can help offset the PH swings at night once the reef is more stocked.

As always Canuck I have a few more questions, sorry for picking your brain so much today haha:

For a 125 bowfront tank how big of a sump/fuge would I need and how do I know how much water is too much (i.e. if the power were to go off, how do i make sure my overflow and tank/sump doesnt overflow)? The size is up to you. Honestly you could get away with a 20 gallon for filtration. I would do 20 or larger. My new 12ft tank is going to be ran off a 55 gallon rubbermaid tub with plastic stacked drawers inside the tub. That gies me 45 gallons of Bio Media and then 45 more gallons inside the tub. You can use a 20 gallon and get 10 gallons of media in there or use a 40 gallon and get 5 gallons of media.... its all how you set up your sump and how effective you actually need it to be. With properly set overflows your kicked back during a power out should only be 5-10 gallons based on your set up. Overflowing should not be an issue, simple tests of shutting off the pump will let you know if your system is flood proof. Make sure you pump doesnt suck the water back that will flood your crap!

Also, I have 2 fluval 305's, I understand loading them with media can cause excess nitrates and do more harm then good, they each have surface skimmers intakes so I feel that at the least they could (along with the overflow) help with surface film, provide more efficient gas exchanges, increase water flow, and slightly increase water volume. I have heard this as well with reefs. I NEVER ran carbon in my reef and refuse to run it in my tanks unless its need. Being chemicals needing to be removed or tannis. Otherwise carbon does not enter my tanks. One fluval would be fine. I would load it full of LR, pond matrix, or other bacteria collecting media. Then in one of the baskets i would have a very very fine filter pad like felt or of the sort. That way the fluval could polish the water and give a very crisp look to the tank. I would probably only hook up one of the fluvals....


Would It be good to just load the media baskets with:
1 chemi pure carbon bags (last 3-6 months) per cannister, No carbon goes bad after 2 weeks and can begin leaching toxins that it collected back into your tank and can cause a mess of problems if not removed by 2 weeks. Its easy to forget about and thats why i dont run it.
1 nitrate /phosphate remover per cannister, Pond matrix bio media... 4litres for 30 dollars. One pint covers 100 gallons.
2 spongers per filter cannister, I would only use one canister and use the big sponge in the front then one of the baskets with very fine micro polishing pads.
Then just crushed coral and LR in remaining space/baskets. Thats fine

OR should they just be bare and used to water flow and volume?

Thats up to you. You will be overkill on filtering already by these ideas loading it up would be pointless. For purposes of flow sure, but its just more clutter under the stand and it will look croweded under the stand. I couldnt handle more wires than i need.

Also should they be filtering in the sump or in the main tank? If its the sump is it before of after the fuge and skimmer, if its the main tank, should they be away from the overflow or it doesnt matter? It doesnt matter. I would have the output of the sump blowing towards one side of the tank where the intake of the fluval is. Ditch the surface skimmer you need to pick up stuff that is in the tank and overflows and surface skimmers dont acheive this well. Also use the fluval inside the tank, it will add flow and will pick up more solids than the sump.

Would adding these filters and there media affect my fuge in negative matter (hurt pod population and make macroalgae go sexual and over run my tank)? From what i know, which is not much on this specific question, but the fuge with the light will actually stop most algea from growing. There is also a really good thread about an algea scrubber that you could easily build that will take care of that if you have future problems. I know those pods take VERY mature tanks to produce them. Ill have to read up on this more myself, i dont deal with algea in my tanks, never had any problems there for no extensive research has been taken.

Lastly, I know in FW and reptile tanks (namely turtles) you can add cuttle bone to increase calcium in the water as they dissolve over time, could I add cuttle bones to the sump or fuge or even crush them up and put them in the fluvals? or is this just a poor idea and wouldnt really influence calcium levels too much? It may not be a good dose for the tank. Reef's are sensitive and need just the right doses. I would recomend buying liquied calcium at your LFS, risking chemicals is something i dont do. I hate chemicals and think they are terrible, Im in alternitive health and same goes for my fish. BUT i do use 3 chemicals or additives for my reef tank, this purpled up my rocks in 1 month! Your going to want Calcion its in a black bottle made by brightwell aquatics... very sleek cool bottle. Then you want the Magnesion by same company, two black bottles with pretty corals on it. Then Reef builder to raises the carbonate alkalinity. These are all easy to dose and with these my reef thrived. My reef had a tessalata eel in it though lol and he did very well with my corals.

Also, I have no idea how much power in terms of pumps and gph i would need for this set up and how much this would run on an avg electric bill so any estimate would be helpful haha. Price would be depending on if your cautious of the products you buy acording to wattage. Id say only an extra 10 - 20 dollars, so your monthly bill including EVERYTHING food water changes etc etc would probly look around 45 dollars a month. This is if you just do everything normally , bargin shopping and being a cautious buyer could really change that price. The size pump i would want would probably be around a 900 - 1500 GPH. It would only need to be around 700 though, but i like strong flow from my pump and good pull from my overflow. Once again this is really up to you and how your budget fits and other things. I have a wet/dry, with overflow and pump right here that i am going to sell..... Its rated up to 180 gallon tank...... super cheap :naughty:. Also DONT WASTE CASH BUYING BIOBALLS. Buy potscrubbies and save some cash. Make sure they are nylon, you can find them at the dollar store or dollar general etc.

Thank you again Canuck, sorry for the long essays and many wuestions but you are putting wikipedia to shame for your help and knowledge hahaha
Click to expand...

Haha i feel i have very little knowledge, but im just giving you answers on what you should have, and what i would do. The best advice i can give with this project is DONT GIVE UP. People who do reefs and get knocked down will get knocked out, dont let it happen i know to many people who hate fish and tanks because of failed reef tanks. Its good that you are really researching your stuff. My reef tank got boring for me, thats probably cause im an 18 years old and rather have the "cool" fish.

Starting up a min reef tank wouldnt be a bad idea either. Start growing some of your corals, the simple LPS corals. They will grow super quick and you can cut them and grow more and trade corals with other people and sell over craigslist, this could fund your 125 bow front. Theres just so many options when setting up a tank lol, good luck any more questions just fire away, mr.reef24 and others will be able to assist with your more reef and detailed pod related questions
 
Canuck I just had a chance to get online and look over your response, and as usual awesome man with the information, I definitely want to make sure I don't have overkill on filtration and flow (for $$ reasons) but don't want to skimp either because as I said I plan on doing this right and well the first time. That advice on the scrubbies seems awesome and how big of a wet dry filter is yours that your selling and could it fit a fuge or do you have pics? I see we are friends now so if you need to pm me with that information thats fine with me.
 
kissarmy39;3945535; said:
Canuck I just had a chance to get online and look over your response, and as usual awesome man with the information, I definitely want to make sure I don't have overkill on filtration and flow (for $$ reasons) but don't want to skimp either because as I said I plan on doing this right and well the first time. That advice on the scrubbies seems awesome and how big of a wet dry filter is yours that your selling and could it fit a fuge or do you have pics? I see we are friends now so if you need to pm me with that information thats fine with me.
Click to expand...

The wetdry is in my one thread titled massive predators WOOT lol. Its the wetdry with the skimmer in it. It comes with bio balls, overflow box that has up to 1500 gph flow. The pump is 900gph. It has sponge block all peices and ready to go. 100$ is what i would like to get out of it. Keep in mind its not set up to be a fuge though and i like the fuge for the pod growth and steady suply. But this is a steel and could run the 125 easy.... though im not sure if its in your mandrin gobies best interest. But i can get the measurements if you would like. I'll do some research on the pods today and find out if they really run the risk of not being steadily supplied without a fuge...

Also, you can ask multiple questions in this thread. You making all these threads is making me thread hop lol.
 
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