Sex, Lies, and Lombardoi....

[cenecker]

Okay HATERS

Time to lay this one to rest.

EVIDENCE

First of all - Gender shifting is very well researched and documented in marine fish, so I don't understand why there is some much doubt that it could happen in freshwater fish (especially cichlids which are assumed to be evolved from marine species exhibiting extensive gender shifting).

http://http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Fish-swap-sex-depending-on-mates-study/2006/09/11/1157826851480.html
http://http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060412091247.htm
http://http://www.amonline.net.au/fishes/faq/sexchange.htm
http://http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6436617/
http://http://www.bio.davidson.edu/Courses/anphys/1999/Rice/Rice.htm
http://http://www.augsburg.edu/home/biology/aquaria/SpecialTopicsFiles/f_SexLivesOfReefFish.html
http://http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/InNews/sexchange2006.html

My first recommendation is...as I have suggested TWICE - READ THIS BOOK BY GEORGE BARLOW

http://http://ib.berkeley.edu/labs/barlow/book.html

The third chapter "plastic sex" is where I'm drawing the majority of my info and assumptions from so please run down the library and check this book out. Besides the info on gender shifting its got TONS of info on cichlid biology in general...top of my suggestioed reading list along with -

http://http://www.amazon.com/African-Cichlids-Lakes-Malawi-Tanganyika/dp/086622856X

Tragically I also discovered that George Barlow died...

http://http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2007/07/30_barlow.shtml

Anyway...back on topic. There is evidence of cichlid gender shifting -

http://http://www.panda.org/about_wwf/where_we_work/africa/where/malawi/wwf_malawi_conservation/on_the_ground/area/species/cichlids/cichlids_change_sex/index.cfm

Interestingly we're not the first forum to debate this topic btw -

http://http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=452218

Anyhow...here is probably the most complete and scientific info I could find on the subject of cichlid gender dynamics - great stuff please read!

http://http://www-personal.umich.edu/~roldfiel/OldfieldFAF2005.pdf

THE PROOF...

Well you got me...unfortnately the paper in the link above references a study on...you guessed it...P. Lombardoi. The study FAILED to find proof that lombardoi's can shift gender . HOWEVER dissection of lombardoi did find edvidence of both oocytes and spermatocytes (boy and girl "stuff") in single specimens...which to me indicates they CAN shift gender, or at least that they are born with both genders possible and MAY choose gender based on social pressures and chances of darwinian fitness.

But as for PROOF yeah I didn't dissect any of the lombardois in the group I cited in my personal example...sooooo yeah. Its perfectly resonable to assume they were not in fact shifting gender but only shifting color. Of course I think based on evidence in other species its also semi - reasonable to assume they were actually shifting gender...hmmmmmmmm. Sorry nothing conclusive...you heard me...I have no proof, only assumptions

CONCLUSION

I've enjoyed researching this...I really need people calling me a liar more often to inspire me to look deeper into what I think I know . It looks like the issue of gender shifting in cichlids is actually a pretty debated one. There is proof that some cichlids do it, and a great deal of inconclusive evidence that it is happening with a number more species. However it seems to really come down the coloration question - are they shifting color or gender? There have only been a few studies that PROVE some species are in fact shifting gender.

My opinion - I still think its perfectly reasonable to assume that gender shifting is happening in far more situations and species than we realize. After all look at marine fish that cichlids descended from! Remember cichlids are incredibly successful fish from an evolutionary stance...mabye do in part to thier ability to reproduce quickly by shifting genders to create ideal male:female ratios...hmmmm?

I welcome further debate, in fact thats why i opened this in a new thread! but please only if you are going to be more scientific than "anybody knows thats BS!"

 

[tarheels910]

Wow I wasnt expecting you to take it this far, but YOUR WRONG.

My proof: The 21,018 members of MFK.

I stand my case.

 

[straitjacketstar]

Wow I wasnt expecting you to take it this far, but YOUR WRONG.

My proof: The 21,018 members of MFK.

I stand my case.

How, in the name of logic, could you say something like that?
Maybe you're not completely aware of the make-up of most of MFK's posting elite but there are actually very few people here who I would actually bother listening to and it's only cause I've seen them on other boards.
Maybe it's a little exhausting forming one's own opinions?

cenecker, I'm quite delighted of all the info you've grabbed. I'll pick up a copy of the book. Although I can't say I'm not familiar to the tune of cichlids and sex changes, when I was briefly looking into it last (a few years ago) it was N. tranvestitus and possibly M. auratus who were the only known cichlids to change sex. I am aware of "goods" of both sexes being found in mbuna but it's was a question of whether they were actually put to use. In M. lombardoi, they have never been proven to change sex. An older female can later appear male but never actually reproduce as a male and males cannot revert back to being females. This happens commonly in the common swordtail. In the swordtail's case the fish carries both male and female "items" but even if a female develops the longer fins and even a gonopodium it does not function, they are not capable of completing a sex change, they never turn into functioning males. Males also cannot revert to a female gender.

 

[Jkoziatek]

u cant jump to conclusions... either side so i believe its open for possibilities but i'm not gunna say i believe it