Shouldn't be so quick to yell Hybrid

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Otherone

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Feb 2, 2009
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Lancaster,PA USA
As I read earlier there are 800+ malawi cichlids and growing...........
IMO people shouldn't be so quick to yell hybrid, there are a lot of factors that come in to play when IDing cichlids the main one is age.

When buying fish from fish stores your usually buying a very young fish.
The fish can take up to and maybe longer 2 years to reach adulthood.
In those years many things can change color, fin shape and length, head shape, body shape, etc....

Some examples of change are the salousi and kenyi both species can interchange blue to yellow til adulthood when they show they're true mating colors.

Another is the Johanni and Maingano both look identical as juvi's but develop different characteristics as adults.

And my goodness Peacocks males and females can look identical for months until fin extensions develop on the males then boom a wealth of color and these fish as juvi's almost all look the same from redshoulders to bicolor 500 to ruby reds.

It would take a long time to research 800+ fish and say indefinately your juvi Hap is a hybrid. I think before screaming hybrid the correct answer should be - this what it looks like to me but time will tell rather than spreading disinformation and disappiontment.
 
Do you have specific examples of this? Are you speaking of one of your fish in particular?
Some fish can show adult coloration within just a couple months. That would depend strictly on the fish. I think most will say if it is too young to tell, but there are many members on here that know what they are talking about. There are also tell-tale signs of whether or not fish are hybrid or not, even at a young age. But that also depends on the fish.
 
Sure a lot of people jump at a fish they do not know what they are for sure as hybrid. To deny that the hobby is not filled with many hybrids is just not true. I think that the oppsite it true. Too often people have a fish that is hybrid and they prefer to say it is something esle, or hope it is. Often some hybrids can look similar to nonhybrids as well. Also your examples are easily spotted and IDed correctly by members.
 
There might be 800+ "species" of african cichlids...but far fewer are commonly kept in the hobby. The chances that a random fish that you get at an LFS (or Petsmart) is a wild, seldom collected, ultra-rare species vs. a mbuna (hap, peacock, etc.) hybrid is about 1 to 1,000.

Sadly, it makes sense to suspect that a lot of easily hybridized fish in the hobby that don't have provenance back to a wild population / collection location are hybrids or at least a mix of geographic varients (different fish that may or may not technically be hybrids).

There is a lot of irresponsibility in the hobby at all levels. Breeding fish of unknown provenance and selling them as "pure" doesn't help.

If you're just keeping a tank of pretty fish...what does it matter if a pretty blue fish is pure or a hybrid?
 
I agree with you all , yes I have specific examples however it is not in my nature to be confrontational and call people out by name so to speak. I am aware of the hybrid situation in the industry and I'm also very fortunate to have a huge fish store in our location ......... I don't do Petsmart. Our fish store has approx. 80 African cichlid tanks all seperate species both juvi's and adults. The weekly fish stock also changes so I've seen 100's of different Africans.............. yet to me I read so many posts of mis-identified fish and seems so often "Hybrid" comes up in almost every "ID my fish" post. I'm not tryin' to dig on people just pointing out that just because a person doesn't know what a fish is they shouldn't go right to "It's a hybrid".
 
It is true that some will call a fish a hybrid, when in fact, they don't know. But that is opinion at its best. It is what it is.
 
Don't be shy, I like a little heated debate, as long as it is within reason and it leads to enlightenment ...I am all for it.

As I read earlier there are 800+ malawi cichlids and growing...........
IMO people shouldn't be so quick to yell hybrid, there are a lot of factors that come in to play when IDing cichlids the main one is age.
I am not quick to yell something. When one makes a statement, presumably, it is an educated guess, or based on a thorough research. Right?!?
If the main factor in identifying cichlids is age, than what the hell are all these different morphological descriptions for. I hope people didn't waste their lives on the research of something useless, if all we have to do to differentiate Mbunas, Aulonocaras, predatory or not predatory utakas from each other is to wait for them to get to adulthood. Is this what you are suggesting?!?


When buying fish from fish stores your usually buying a very young fish.
The fish can take up to and maybe longer 2 years to reach adulthood.
In those years many things can change color, fin shape and length, head shape, body shape, etc....
As mentioned above, usually experience, personal or public literature and research have made clear some different morphological aspects that differentiate those 800+ variants into major family classes, and in the eventuality that one is unable to accurately pinpoint the exact variant ..we have a general specie description, with an innacurate collection point, something seldom being referred to as "sp." until a thorough description of the newly discovered, or undescribed individuals will be available to the general public.


Some examples of change are the salousi and kenyi both species can interchange blue to yellow til adulthood when they show they're true mating colors.
Good point, but you fail to underline the major differences:Pseudotropheus (Saulosi) versus Metriaclima (Lombardoi "Kenyi"), and how easily distinguishable they are. Saulosi, complete yellow coloration as juvies, males will usually start to morph the color in grow out tanks very early, especially when there's no aggressors around. Lombardoi, stripped juvies, completely yellow males.

And other aspects, but I agree with you on the difficulty sometimes in regards to the identification of certain species. Still, there are subtle and revealing hints in their transformation, morphology (size, girth, mouth) which help us ID one versus the other, or a male versus a female.


Another is the Johanni and Maingano both look identical as juvi's but develop different characteristics as adults.
 Your point is? If I remember correctly the question was if you can distinguish Johanniis from Mainganos. And my answer (detailed if I may) was yes.


And my goodness Peacocks males and females can look identical for months until fin extensions develop on the males then boom a wealth of color and these fish as juvi's almost all look the same from redshoulders to bicolor 500 to ruby reds.
Now we come to one of my favorite subjects: human responsability. There's a great deal of people out there that put some effort into making sure they sell the correctly described fish to the common hobbyists, but there's ten times more of those who could care less.
Now, if someone comes up here with a described fish that to me looks like something else, should I keep quiet? Pardon me for asking, but would you like to live in the comfortable bliss of ignorance, or you'd actually love to hear different opinions on the matter, and then make an educated guess yourself?

It would take a long time to research 800+ fish and say indefinately your juvi Hap is a hybrid. I think before screaming hybrid the correct answer should be - this what it looks like to me but time will tell rather than spreading disinformation and disappiontment.
The case that you are referring I think is this http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223274 ..and I am sorry if I seemed amused, but how can you confuse a medium genus hap with a Champsochromis. Seriously, the most basic research on the specie of Champsochromis reveals how morphologically different they are from what you have claimed to be a juvie "Malawi trout". Now, if I may direct you again to that respective thread, post #22, where I gave a detailed response on the reasons why I believe that fish is a hybrid.
I don't claim absolute knowledge, but I try to base my answers on as much of an educated guess and thorough research as possible.

If my answers upset you in any way, please, prove me wrong, I always love to learn new things, and hopefully so did you, today, after reading this.

All the best ;),
Marius
 
I'm a hybrid, but I'm also a line-bred specimen as well. LOL
 
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