Sump for 12'x4'x3'

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Peckoltia

Peckoltia

Dovii
MFK Member
Dec 22, 2005
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Hi

I am finalizing my filtration for a tank I am having made that is 12'x4'x3' ~1,000g. Having an overflow box and holes drilled into the tank while it is being built. This is my first sump of significant size, usually run above tank trickle filters and large cannisters until now. Reason for a sump is it is going to be a large display tank, and I was all the clutter out of the tank.

Looking at 2x 2" pipes coming out of my overflow box, which equates to about 3, 000GPH at max flow. I realise the holes will be drilled larger to suit the 2" bulkheads that I select. Do you guys who run big sumps think this will be enough for such a large tank? Which is obviously about 3x turnover per hour if matched up to an appropriately sized pump. Or should I get a third hole drilled to just have that option of more flow? I will be adding a couple of sicce voyagers stream pumps to the tank for water movement. I like to position my internal filters in a way that allows solid waste to build up in specific areas of the tank.

Sump will be running Matala matting in the first chamber (mechanical), expanded clay (bio) in the next and a moving bed of K1 media (bio) in the third chamber before the return. Have been running K1 in a couple side drop filters I have built into tanks, and it as magic stuff. The amount of biological waste that it can handle is second to none in my opinion.

I haven't put the plans for my sump in just yet, and will be getting made by a different mob than my tank. Am thinking 6x3x2 for the sump size, and running it at about 60% capacity, which gives me ~40% capacity for power failure and maintenance when turning the return pump off.

My main questions are in regards to appropriate sump size for the tank size, and is there enough flow leaving the tank. I am a firm believer that extra flow does not always equate to a more effective biological filter. Contact time is needed with the biological media for it to be effective, not just ripping flow with enormous turn over.

Any thoughts would be great. Or pictures of some of your sumps for large tanks (450gal +).

Cheers
 
The turn over will depend on your stock, I think it would be fine for moderate stock levels, but if you like feeding heavily and/or want to keep a heap of fish then you may want more. Either way, redundancy is a good thing when it comes to overflow drains, you certainly wouldn't want two 50mm drains both running at their maximum capacity with no sort of back up. Along with what PacuMom said, think about how you're going to set up your drains so they run quietly. I've basically done a simplified Bean Animal style set up with mine, two 50mm drains, one lower than the other, the lower will be controlled with a ball valve to run as a full siphon [silent] taking ~90% of the flow, and the other will take the remaining flow and also be very quiet as it will only be handling a fraction of what it is capable of flowing. Even if you're only aiming for 3x turn over initially I would go for more drains to give you the potential to run more flow and/or to avoid flooding if one of the others gets blocked.

With regards to the sump design, it sounds to me like you've gone overkill with the bio but not enough mechanical. I'm not familiar with matala mat, but if it is the stuff I'm thinking of it isn't very fine. Also not sure why you'd run both K1 and clay media, does one do something the other doesnt? I would also recommend adding a drain in the sump that can be used for either automated or semi-automated water changes.

If you have a look at the thread in my sig you'll see the sump design I've used for my 2000L tank (it's being built now so no comment on performance yet). I've opted for a large settling chamber to catch the big waste from the plecs I'm keeping, then Poret foam for a mix of mechanical and bio filtration, and then a small (40L) chamber of pond matrix and bioballs (mainly because I had them already) as I'm a fan of the trickle style filtration. There are certainly other ways to do it, I was considering using filter socks as I did on my last sump, but with the large-growing Panaques and huge quantities of sawdust they make I decided they would most likely need changing too often.
 
Thanks.

Will look into it. The bean animal's overflow system looks the goods.

An external overflow at the back of the tank would be difficult to get to with the tank being 4' wide and 3' tall. If I went external an overflow box running the length of one of the ends would likely be my best bet.

The matala matting comes in four densities. The finest one is very fine. Would probably try use two different densities. I find the expanded clay does trap some debris, and needs to be cleaned every 6months or so. So in my opinion it has some mechanical properties, while the k1 is a 100% biological.

Tank will be pretty heavily stocked. Have 8 adult stingrays that will be going into it amongst other large fish. If I go an external box, I will certainly have more holes drilled into the box. The reason I didn't want too many in the internal one was the size of the box. My question is, with the bean system, could you use 2 pipes utilising a full siphon and two as backup? or is it advisable to only run a single pipe at full siphon?
 
I don't see why you couldn't use two at full siphon if your pump provided enough flow, I guess it would just require a bit more tuning?

RE the size of the overflow, if you've got 3000gph flowing over it you want a reasonable length weir for it to flow over. I know what you mean about the box taking up a bit of space, mine ended up being 480x200mm, which was bigger than I'd planned, but I hadn't taken the bracing into consideration and the need to get my hand into the overflow. Lucky the tank maker was thinking!

I've always used RXPlastics bulkheads, not sure if they're available in Oz but I'm sure they will have something similar. They are mainly used for fitting to plastic water tanks (for drinking water etc).

ps. I'm rather jealous of you guys getting rays over there, seriously adding to the temptation to jump the ditch!
 
Thanks for your replies mate, greatly appreciated. Been keeping fish for 20years, but have never set up a big sump, so this is a massive learning process. You never know it all in this hobby so many facets to think about.

The Ray scene is fairly new in Australia. We have had motoro here for many years, now we get mantilla and leo also. Leo's are still 10k a pup, and breeders have a pact here and only release males for sale. So there are lots of hybrids here between leo's, motoro and mantilla. Which is a good thing for the most part as you get to see different patterns and colouring that would not otherwise be available to us. I'm breeding motoros at the moment. Have had 5 batches of pups, which has yielded about 25pups all up. I kept back the 5 best females and the best male for future breeding. I also have a mantilla X motoro hybrid male.

Your pleco collection is nothing to sneeze at though! some nice fish indeed.

I need to find out how much length I would need the water to flow over for an external box. The tank is 4' wide, so if I did it on the side I could utilise ~3.5' for flow into an external box. Do people think this would be enough? If I am planning on ~3000GPH?

If it isn't I will go with an internal box. While I like the idea of keeping the box out of the tank, it isn't feasible for me to have it at the back of the tank as access to it will be extremely limited. While it will take up space inside, the rays mainly inhabit the bottom of the tank and I doubt a box in the corner of the tank will inhibit swimming room all that much, is more of an aesthetic thing.
 
I would also suggest going with a third drain; if you end up deciding you need more flow, trying to add another drain later would be a real pain.

I have three 2" drains on my 770G tank and I'm running about 2,000GPH. My 3 overflows drain into large polypropylene filter socks, then past Black, Blue and Grey Matala sheets then 20liters of Seachem pond Matrix.

I'm not sure the matala would be enough mechanical filtration for my liking. I have it more for bio-media. The grey mat which is the finest is still pretty porous and would still let a lot through.

Here's an old video of my sump. If you want to see how my water looks, check out some of my other videos...I run a 25 micron, 50 micron and 100 micron filter socks and I'm really happy with my water clarity.

Looking forward to seeing your setup...sounds awesome!

[video=youtube_share;3g4KGI7caho]http://youtu.be/3g4KGI7caho[/video]
 
Alex is the Matala similar to Poret foam? I was thinking of something completely different before seeing your pic. I'm doing something similar with my sump, I just couldn't face the prospect of changing filter socks every three days again without trying something different! If the clarity isn't good enough with the Poret I'm going to use I'll look at either running a canister on the sump with polishing pads, or a small pump in the sump running on its own loop with a fine filter sock.

Peckoltia said:
The Ray scene is fairly new in Australia. We have had motoro here for many years, now we get mantilla and leo also. Leo's are still 10k a pup, and breeders have a pact here and only release males for sale. So there are lots of hybrids here between leo's, motoro and mantilla. Which is a good thing for the most part as you get to see different patterns and colouring that would not otherwise be available to us. I'm breeding motoros at the moment. Have had 5 batches of pups, which has yielded about 25pups all up. I kept back the 5 best females and the best male for future breeding. I also have a mantilla X motoro hybrid male.

Your pleco collection is nothing to sneeze at though! some nice fish indeed.
Click to expand...

Cheers, I gather the plecs would be worth a fair bit over there, I guess that's one advantage we have. Would still trade them for rays in a heartbeat though! Interesting to hear what the Aussie scene is like, how did the leos get into the country? Are they legal to import, or do they just seem to find a way in?

I think using 3-4' of the width of your tank for the external overflow would work fine with your intended GPH. My overflow is about 680mm long, I'm aiming for around 2-2500gph flow. It also depends if you're planning on running some sort of overflow comb and how that will restrict the flow.

Is the tank going to be all glass?
 
Leo's are not on the import list, not much is. So they 'somehow' find their way into the country.

Went and saw a couple mates today. One is an engineer. The other is a tank building. So nutted out the final plans for the overflow.

Ended up going with 4x 50mm holes in the weir. Which will fit 40mm bulkheads. One of them will used as a backup standpipe in case of a blockage. One will be used at full siphon and the other as the 'excess' pipe to keep it all quiet. The fourth one is more of a redundancy hole. Gives me the ability to add more flow if i choose in the future. Allows for me to add more flow to the sump in the future. The return in another 50mm hole, for another 40mm bulk head. Will probably split this into two returns in the tank so I can aim one at the floor and have one on the surface. The bottom of the return hole is slightly lower than the 'slit' into the weir, so we had to account for that with the sump size. Roughly 250L of water will return to my sump when the power goes off. Which the sump will easily take.

The 'slit' into the overflow box is 1080mm long by 15mm. So should be plenty of flow by our calculations.


Here are some photos of the plans. Tank will be ready to roll my the end of the year.







Not sure if you will be able to see the measurements in the pic or not. I feel a lot better having 4x larger holes, as I can always reduce flow, but I can't increase it once the tank is drilled. Tank is being made out of acrylic. Which is another first as all my tanks are made from glass including my current 8x3x2.5.

I also scored big today. My mate gave me 95% of the plumbing I will need, all bulkheads, elbows, taps etc. Probably saved me a good $500.

ps - yeah the plecos are pricey over here. Royal plecos usually go for about $800-1000ea.

Cheers.
 
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