Thoughts on mysterious deaths of Hydrolycus scomberoides

[scorp]

Hello,

today I was thinking about buying new vitamins for my scomb that is eating only frozen silversides (which I am happy about, since it took 3 months to get him off life feeders) in order to "fight the thiaminase" (vitamin B1 deficiency).

Then it occured to me that there must be a reason why I've never heard of scombs' myserious deaths before I came to this forum.

First off, my scomb was the hardest fish I've ever kept to get off of feeders. And he is one of the most unsuccessful hunters I've ever witnessed, but that might be just him

Could it be that you guys in the States just use goldfish (which contain a lot of thiaminase) excessively as feeders, because they're really cheap and convenient? In germany for example, they cost ten times what you pay at your lfs! So nobody would even consider keeping his fish on a goldfish diet, but rather try to get guppys etc.

Might that, combined with the rather difficult to keep species Hydrolycus scomberoides, be the reason for sudden deaths after a longer period of keeping them?

I need input from people who have kept AND lost them after a longer period of time about feeding habits, please.

Here a link to the vitamin deficiency:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriberi

Cheers everybody!

 

[hybridtheoryd16]

It is very unpopular for a US fish keeper to feed there predators live foods.

You can literally get on any fish web site and with in 10minutes see a post from someone saying not to feed there fish live foods because they contain parasites,etc,etc.

I would think that probably 60-70% of US owners that have scombs. And are able to keep them alive long enough to get the parasites cleared out of them from being wild caught break the fish onto dead foods.

I lost many of them before starting a parasite treatment regiment. And since then I have kept 2 alive for a few years now. They are on a strict diet of goldfish and fathead minnows. Which contain high levels of thiamine.


I bielieve that most common cause of death to the large characins here is
#1--poor tank mate selection, cichlids, peacock bass, clown knives,etc.
#2--parasites, most people don't realize they are wild caught and full of parasites from the wild.
#3-- wasting disease , a nutritional defiency possibly from dead foods, and feeding freshwater fish salt water food items. (shrimp,silver sides,white fish,cod fillet strips,etc)

I am a big time advocate for feeding predatory fish live items. After seeing many many US keepers feed there prized characins dead food items that were considered to be the best. And then a year later or so reading about them stopping eating and dieing shortly after. All the while our Asian brothers feed them carp/gold fish feeders and keep them in what most consider sub par tanks and have alot less problems.

Also I have never seen a single peice of proof that thiamine defiency can harm a fish. Just alot of people saying it can. I know it effects reptiles and humans, but thats a little different than a fish eating a fish.

All IMO.

 

[scorp]

Thanks for your input!

Here's an abstract to an article about B1 deficiency affecting trout:

http://afsjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1577/1548-8659(1942)72[30:VBDIHR]2.0.CO;2

 

[mos90]

It is very unpopular for a US fish keeper to feed there predators live foods.

You can literally get on any fish web site and with in 10minutes see a post from someone saying not to feed there fish live foods because they contain parasites,etc,etc.

I would think that probably 60-70% of US owners that have scombs. And are able to keep them alive long enough to get the parasites cleared out of them from being wild caught break the fish onto dead foods.

I lost many of them before starting a parasite treatment regiment. And since then I have kept 2 alive for a few years now. They are on a strict diet of goldfish and fathead minnows. Which contain high levels of thiamine.


I bielieve that most common cause of death to the large characins here is
#1--poor tank mate selection, cichlids, peacock bass, clown knives,etc.
#2--parasites, most people don't realize they are wild caught and full of parasites from the wild.
#3-- wasting disease , a nutritional defiency possibly from dead foods, and feeding freshwater fish salt water food items. (shrimp,silver sides,white fish,cod fillet strips,etc)

I am a big time advocate for feeding predatory fish live items. After seeing many many US keepers feed there prized characins dead food items that were considered to be the best. And then a year later or so reading about them stopping eating and dieing shortly after. All the while our Asian brothers feed them carp/gold fish feeders and keep them in what most consider sub par tanks and have alot less problems.

Also I have never seen a single peice of proof that thiamine defiency can harm a fish. Just alot of people saying it can. I know it effects reptiles and humans, but thats a little different than a fish eating a fish.

All IMO.

as usual i agree with hybrid. i feel it is healthier to feed either live or good quality pellet or dry food. my scombs are fed only live fatheads or rosies and my arow only eats arow sticks for the most part. occationally live or krill once every few weeks for a treat. id be better off feeding raw market shrimp then krill i think.

my rays are eating live blackworms right now. might be difficult to get them on anything else at this point. but im trying.

 

[cudamaster13]

as usual i agree with hybrid. i feel it is healthier to feed either live or good quality pellet or dry food. my scombs are fed only live fatheads or rosies and my arow only eats arow sticks for the most part. occationally live or krill once every few weeks for a treat. id be better off feeding raw market shrimp then krill i think.

my rays are eating live blackworms right now. might be difficult to get them on anything else at this point. but im trying.

maybe scombs die becuase of lack of current in the tank payara are fast flowing river fish

 

[mos90]

Maybe. I know my tank has plenty of current. I added as much as I could without stiring up all my sand.

 

[hybridtheoryd16]

Thanks for your input!

Here's an abstract to an article about B1 deficiency affecting trout:

http://afsjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1577/1548-8659(1942)72[30:VBDIHR]2.0.CO;2

Awesome article

Now I know that it is possible for fish.

I can only atest to having fed nothing but goldfish and fathead minnows for 4-5yrs to the same payara with no ill result.

So at this point I still beleive that gold fish species don't have enough thiamin to cause any problems. It may very well be my quarintine process and fattening them up on a nutritous flake food before feeding. IDK

 

[scorp]

Awesome article

Now I know that it is possible for fish.

I can only atest to having fed nothing but goldfish and fathead minnows for 4-5yrs to the same payara with no ill result.

So at this point I still beleive that gold fish species don't have enough thiamin to cause any problems. It may very well be my quarintine process and fattening them up on a nutritous flake food before feeding. IDK

Awesome insight, thanks for sharing your experience! It might well be the quarantine feeding of the fish, since I know of some cases where fish died because of vitamin B1 deficiency while only being fed frozen silversides.

Believe me, if feeder fish were cheaper here, I'd love to go the "all-natural" way, especially with piscivore fish such as the Hydrolycus.

Just to give you a feeling for the prices here: at the moment (almost spring, so not the cheapest season for goldfish yet) one 2" goldfish costs more than 1.50$

And I'm not talking about the expensive LFS around the corner (where the prices are double that atm), but internet prices!

So since I don't have a fish farm close to me, and don't order a couple of hundred/thousand online (which I did last year once and might do again soon), my fish have to be fine with life feeders every once in a while.

Cheers

 

[hybridtheoryd16]

If I were in your situation I would probably feed dead as well with a treat every once in a while just to make sure the nutrition is good.


Feeders here are very cheap.
I buy my fathead's from a fishing bait supply house. I get 1 pound for $12.60. A pound is supposedly 360 2-3" minnows. I also buy guppies,platy's,endlers,goldfish at 100 for 10 bucks at a LFS here. I alternate depending on size and health of the stock at the time.

But even as cheap as they are I still breed them as well. Which maybe a solution for you. But it takes a long time to get a stock large enough to sustain itself.

I have a 10-11" barracuda in a 125G tank with several floating plants. This fish pays no attenion to a .5-1" endler or guppie. So i added 200 endler/guppie mix to its tank about 1 year ago. And I have not purchased a small feeder since then. I have raised 10-12 baby characins up on that stock since then and there is still alot in the tank of all sizes.

I also breed convicts as well but here lately the payara are not interested in eating them.

Check out my thread in the breeding section labeled ( All about breeding feeders ) if you want to set something up.

 

[scorp]

Check out my thread in the breeding section labeled ( All about breeding feeders ) if you want to set something up.

I already did

I tried convicts, but my scomb won't eat it, I think they're too smart and too close to the bottom of the tank for him to catch them.

In addition, water and electricity prices are too high here too breed your own feeder fish. I might as well get them from the store every once in a while and quarantine, but thanks for your input!