Water Level Too High with Sump

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jandb

Piranha
MFK Member
Jan 18, 2009
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Lewis Center, OH
Hello, I recently rescaped my 72x24x36 and added a large school of neon tetras. A lot of them wound up in the sump, so I put gutter guard material on the overflow weirs. I've left the return pump the same and tried to adjust things with the gate valve on my main overflow pipe. I can't get the water level not to touch the top braces of the tank even when the overflows are sucking air. My thought is the gutter guard is limiting flow through the weirs. Does it make sense to cut the return pump back and try to tune the overflows from there?
 
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If I understand correctly, the weir is setting the hight of the water in the tank and turning down the pump will not change the hight If the weir is fixed.
The pump will still fill the tank to the same hight just at less flow.
Unless the slower flow rate will allow the weir to keep up a little better then it may work but if anything clogs or slows the weir down you may end up over flowing the tank.
 
If I understand correctly, the weir is setting the hight of the water in the tank and turning down the pump will not change the hight If the weir is fixed.
The pump will still fill the tank to the same hight just at less flow.
Unless the slower flow rate will allow the weir to keep up a little better then it may work but if anything clogs or slows the weir down you may end up over flowing the tank.
I agree with you, that's why I'm so stumped. The height of the weir hasn't changed.
 
Agree,
the tank water surface height will not change, that is set by the height of the weirs.
Cutting back on flow rate, or water volume will only change the height of the surface in the sump.
When I lower the volume of water in my system, it only changes the height of water in the sump.
IMG_2861.jpeg
The surface of the water in my main tank, always remains about this same level (above), because that is where the overflow levels are (the white PVC overflows on the right).
Below the average water level of the sump.
IMG_2863.jpeg

But when I'm doing a water change, or when small leaks from earthquakes, shake PVC loose bit, I may get a 40 or 50 gallon leak over night, and the sump level drops, but as you can see in the main tank on the left, the level of the tank does not change.
IMG_2860.jpeg
 
Ordinarily the overflow area will indeed dictate the display tank water level. The display tank should remain constant and any changes in water level, through evaporation for example, are always in the sump.

But the OP has restricted their weir with gutter guard, to such an extent it would seem that the overflow level has changed slightly, hence rise in display tank level. So if the new level is higher due to the gutter guard, then turning the pump down ain't gonna do anything, as they've already discovered.

And as the level in the display tank rises then the sump level will decrease, and quite a bit too I suspect.

I agree that pictures would help us make more sense of this problem.

I personally would not hinder overflows in any way. It's risky enough that tank debris could get caught in there, let alone knowingly tinker with it and cause a potential problem that way.
 
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The cross-sectional area of the water going over the weir changed when the gutter guard was added. Area is just length x height and both changed because the mesh has supports that block the area of water in both directions. So if you want height to NOT change then you need to change the length - you need to build a longer/wider guard for the overflow. Not sure what the shape of your overflow box is but you need some sort of guard that is offset an inch (or more...) from the rim of the box. Will take some trial and error.
 
In addition to everything else said already, check for obstructions in your plumbing or even around the drains in the sump. Sometimes it can be difficult to get my system running in that sweet spot if even a small bit of algae gets into my drains somewhere.
 
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The cross-sectional area of the water going over the weir changed when the gutter guard was added. Area is just length x height and both changed because the mesh has supports that block the area of water in both directions. So if you want height to NOT change then you need to change the length - you need to build a longer/wider guard for the overflow. Not sure what the shape of your overflow box is but you need some sort of guard that is offset an inch (or more...) from the rim of the box. Will take some trial and error.

This! ^

The gutter guard has reduced the area through/over which water can flow, so the water level rises to compensate. It isn't even a stable arrangement; as the holes in the gutter guard become gradually clogged with particulate matter, algae, etc. you will find the water level in the tank continues to slowly rise to overcome this obstruction. If any of the older members remember the old DLS (double layer spiral) medium used in corner overflows many years ago, they recall how the water level in the overflow rose gradually as the medium clogged; that's exactly what is happening here, except it's the water level in the tank itself that is being controlled and determined by the degree of clogging/obstruction.

I find that these types of overflows are pretty useless when keeping very small fish. They're even worse when you factor in live plants, which always produce a bunch of small particulates and pieces that clog overflows quickly. Then, when you remove the obstruction by cleaning, the water level in the tank drops immediately back down to its starting point, and the sump water level rises dramatically, perhaps to the overflowing point.

IMHO, the best kind of overflow is a simple hole drilled in the side of the tank near the top, equipped with a bulkhead. Inside the tank, a T is fitted to the bulkhead; one side of the T is equipped with a piece of pipe that extends down into the tank and draws water from any level you choose. I often swiss-cheese that pipe, cap the end and then loosly wrap it with coarse mechanical filtration medium; the coarseness and the large area of the medium cause clogging to be very, very slow.

The other side of the T faces the surface and is equipped with a 90-degree elbow. This is just a slip-fit, not glued in, and can be rotated so that the water surface is just lapping at the opening of the elbow. If something happens to obstruct the pipe below, causing the water level in the tank to rise, then as soon as it begins to overflow the elbow it drains safely into the sump as planned. This can also be set so that a tiny amount of the regular water volume being fed to the sump is skimmed from the surface, if desired.

The system works...it allows stable control of water level exactly where you want it...it can be combined with a similar T fitting on the outside of the tank if desired for even greater range of control...but it doesn't look cool. :)

360 overflow.jpg
 
The cross-sectional area of the water going over the weir changed when the gutter guard was added. Area is just length x height and both changed because the mesh has supports that block the area of water in both directions. So if you want height to NOT change then you need to change the length - you need to build a longer/wider guard for the overflow. Not sure what the shape of your overflow box is but you need some sort of guard that is offset an inch (or more...) from the rim of the box. Will take some trial and error.

You can also lower the water level by cutting the grooves in the weir down a short distance...but then if you decide to go back to not having the gutterguard, your water level will be permanently lower than it was before.
 
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