What multivitamins for fish ?

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Silencious

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Jul 4, 2023
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Hi all !

I am wondering, what would be the perfect multi-vitamin for fish to add in their food ?

I am looking to make a beef heart mix and i would like to add multi-vitamins in it but i read copper is very toxic for fishs.
So my question is ; Does anyone know any multi-vitamins affordable i could add into my beef heart mix to meet the need of my cichlids ? Specifically discus and stingray.

Ive seen many people using multi-vitamins tablets for humans but as i read the ingredient they almost all have copper in it and they are way too rich in fat soluble vitamins such as vitamins A, D, E and K.

In a perfect world, already powdered vitamins or tablets vitamins would be the best.

Let me know your thoughts :)
 
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You appear to have put some thought into this which in my mind conflicts w/ the concept of a non-natural feed (a discus would never eat a cow). Is the vitamin amalgam intended to offset the feed choice?

I think Axelrod or someone of his ilk suggested beef heart in the 70's as I used to feed it back then but I thought that feel from favor.
 
State of the art thinking when done in 1960. Even back when this was considered an acceptable practice, my father (not an aquarist except by association with me) asked in a very point-blank manner "why would we feed the meat of a cow to fish?" It made little sense to me then, and makes no more now.

There have been numerous threads by RD. RD. and others here on MFK that address this odd choice. I don't believe any of them encourage or support it.
 
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State of the art thinking when done in 1960. Even back when this was considered an acceptable practice, my father (not an aquarist except by association with me) asked in a very point-blank manner "why would we feed the meat of a cow to fish?" It made little sense to me then, and makes no more now.

There have been numerous threads by RD. RD. and others here on MFK that address this odd choice. I don't believe any of them encourage or support it.
Makes as much sense as us drinking the milk from a cow, according to my high school oceanography teacher anyways
 
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Makes as much sense as us drinking the milk from a cow, according to my high school oceanography teacher anyways

You can thank a USDA lobbyist for that one. Notice how cheese was not a significant part of anyone's diet until about 20 years ago and now Costco has an entire cooler dedicated to it and supermarkets have a zillion kinds? That too is your gov't in action.
 
You can thank a USDA lobbyist for that one. Notice how cheese was not a significant part of anyone's diet until about 20 years ago and now Costco has an entire cooler dedicated to it and supermarkets have a zillion kinds? That too is your gov't in action.
I can’t remember much of what was said, ( I graduated high school in 93) but that oceanography teacher did a two day lecture on why he believes milk is bad for us. Something about the nutrient levels being meant for a growing cow ( paraphrasing), not adult humans. I do remember if we wanted anything but a basic cheese having to go to a deli.
 
I can’t remember much of what was said, ( I graduated high school in 93) but that oceanography teacher did a two day lecture on why he believes milk is bad for us. Something about the nutrient levels being meant for a growing cow ( paraphrasing), not adult humans.

If you strip it right back to the basics your old teacher had a valid point, even way back then. And nowadays people take the whole dairy thing to a different level altogether.

The basic thing, and you can't really argue with it, it sounds so obvious, is that cow milk, a very complex product, is designed to cater for the complete dietary requirements of a calf, not a human!

This is exactly why mothers are advised to breast feed. Breast milk has everything a young human requires.

Look at seal milk as another example. It is that laden with fat, to ensure maximum protection for the young pup, it is almost like butter coming out of the mother. Would we consume seal milk!!

It's a huge complex rabbit hole and the whole argument of "is dairy good or bad for you" will rumble on.

Sorry for the derailment S Silencious . Back to the topic in question, and as already advised, I'd try and give the beef heart a miss if I was you. I can't understand why hobbyists would feed terrestrial animal meat to their fish when there is a vast array of complete fish foods on the market.
 
Makes as much sense as us drinking the milk from a cow, according to my high school oceanography teacher anyways

Sounds like one of the many quasi-intellectuals who sully the term "teacher". The much-vaunted human intelligence...of which they are so especially proud and which they claim to exercise so strenuously...virtually demands that at some long-ago time in our evolutionary past a primitive human or pre-human got sick and tired of listening to the relentless squawking of a newborn whose mother was unable or unavailable to provide milk. As he reached for his club to ensure some peace and quiet...his eye fell upon one of the semi-domesticated goats in the crude adjoining corral. A newborn kid was nursing noisily at its mother's udder. Behind our hero's shaggy, cliff-like brow...a dim prehistoric light bulb flickered. He rose and moved towards the goat-pen...and thus took the first steps on the path leading to today's dairy industry.

Along with other simple yet essential ideas...stuff like fire, tools, language, cooking, warfare, etc...which our ancestors developed and used to build today's society which allows people to just sit on their asses all day, claiming to be thinking instead of doing, feeding our young the milk of other species seems like a stroke of genius. Like other aspects of human nutrition, it has helped us to grow bigger and stronger than would have been otherwise the case, and has absolutely decreased infant mortality. Comparing the idea of one mammal species feeding upon the milk of another mammal species to a fish eating the flesh of a mammal is ludicrous. Cattle and people are practically evolutionary siblings compared to the vast gulf between mammals and fish.
 
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Just in case the OP is interested...

I'm sorry, but feeding mammal meat of any kind to a finfish is No Bueno in my books. You asked about papers/studies, Amy, so here's a link to a more recent scientific paper that I think every discus owner/breeder should read.


http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1679-62252008000400008



"This species feeds predominantly on algal periphyton, fine organic detritus, plant matter, and small aquatic invertebrates."



"The alimentary canal of Symphysodon is characterized by a poorly defined stomach and an elongate intestine, some 300 mm long and 3 mm wide (in a 180 mm SL specimen). This intestinal morphology is typical of a cichlid with a dominantly vegetarian, detritivorous, or omnivorous diet."



Heiko Bleher wrote the following…………


What do Discus eat?


I have examined hundreds of specimens during many years and stomach and gut contents among wild Discus indicate an order of precedence: detritus, then plant material (flowers, fruits, seeds, leaves), algae and micro-algae, aquatic invertebrates and terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. The Amazon has adapted to nature for fishes during millennia of evolution. Plants of the tropical rainforest have little water and cannot flourish during the dry season so cannot waste energy. The same happens to most freshwater fishes.

During the dry period, with a much reduced water level and hardly any food source — except for predators — many fish starve or feed on the little available, usually detritus.

Discus and many other fishes eat what they can get, but have to be constantly aware of carnivorous predators. During the six to nine months of floods, almost all trees and bushes, flower and have fruits and seeds — which is the main nutrition of roughly 75% of all Amazonian fishes.

The adults, and babies which grow to adults in that period, can then fill their stomachs and guts.

The carnivorous predators starve as they cannot find their prey in the huge water masses.


How much nutrition?


I have found the following percentage of nutrition in each one of the three species:


Symphysodon discus during low water: 55% detritus; 15% plant material; 12% algae and micro-algae; 10% aquatic invertebrates; 8% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. During high water: 28% detritus; 52% plant material; 5% algae and micro-algae; 3% aquatic invertebrates; 12% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods.


Symphysodon aequifasciatus low water: 52% detritus; 18% plant material; 15% algae and micro-algae; 13% aquatic invertebrates; 2% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. High water: 8% detritus; 62% plant material; 8% algae and micro-algae; 5% aquatic invertebrates; 17% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods.


Symphysodon haraldi low water: 39% detritus; 9% plant material; 25% algae and micro-algae; 22% aquatic invertebrates; 5% terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. High water: 6% detritus; 44% Plant material; 12% algae and micro-algae; 16% aquatic invertebrates; 22% terrestrial and aboreal arthropods.

.............................................................



Not exactly a species of fish geared towards eating high protein foods such as mammal meat, and the fact that many discus owners still feed their fish foods such as beef heart doesn't equate to it being an ideal form of nutrition. According to the most recent science available, I would think far from it.


Several years ago Chong et al ran a 3 month feed trial on juvenile discus (fish approx. 4.5 grams in weight) and concluded that a diet consisting of 45-50% protein, and 8% fat was ideal for optimum growth for juveniles of this species. I have no argument with those stats, and again the same could be said for thousands of other ornamental species of fish, but somehow this data has been used by certain segments of Discus keepers to support their use of a high protein diet such as beef heart. I have never understood the logic in that.


Chong et al used fish meal as the source of protein (along with casein & gelatine as binding agents) in their study, not beefheart.



Even a lot of the old school discus keepers have moved away from foods such as beef heart over the past decade, for these exact reasons. It's a great food for breeders that simply want quick growth in their juvenile fish (so they can take them to market quicker) but in my opinion it is most certainly not an ideal long term diet due to the potential of fatty degeneration of the liver.


Jack Wattley has recently stated that a good staple pellet or flake food is more ideal for optimum health. In the Dec 2006 edition of Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine, Jack stated:


"I've moved in a new direction regarding the feeding of discus, and after many tests feel that a top quality flake or pellet food formulated especially for discus is perhaps the best direction to take.”




The late Dr. Schmidt-Focke was one of the first to realize health problems when feeding foods such as beef heart, and quit feeding his discus beef heart in favor of a seafood based diet. Dieter Untergasser has also demonstrated the harm beefheart can have on discus and other long lived cichlids. And there are studies that have taken place that demonstrated that when too much protein is fed to a juvenile discus it can have the opposite effect, as it requires energy to excrete the excess amino acids (protein), which is energy that could have been used for growth.


It is my opinion that the goal should be to closely match the amino acids, fatty acids, vitamins etc. as the fish would receive if eating in the wild. With today's commercial foods this is much easier to do than 30-40 yrs. ago, and with a nutrient dense commercial food a fish will generally always be consuming more nutrients on a daily basis than they typically would in the wild. This equates to steady healthy even growth in a fish. Perhaps one won't see the massive gains as they would when feeding mammal meat, but I personally don't see slower more even growth a negative.
 
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