When 100% Silicone isn't

[CHFIII]

There have been threads on this before. Just adding to the knowledge base....

So I found a 60h leaker for $15 and of course I can always find room in the garage for another tank right now. I don't have the tube any longer but yes, I used the GE Silicone 2 and it claims to staying free for five years. Tube did not mention any harmful chemical and said 100% silicone but we know that's not accurate since there is plenty of acetic acid in that stuff (vinegar).
So fortunately I am not entirely brain dead. I let the tank cure for a couple days before filling then ran it a few days. Tossed some well cycled media into one of my homemade internal canisters with a spraybar and ran that for another day. All water parameters were zeroed out, PH was normal so I tossed in a few culls to act as canaries and they died in 24 hours. So I tested everything, all fine...
25% water change, bothers to acclimate this time and the next handful of culls died in 48 hours. I'm thinking WTF - other than culls I see a dead fish maybe once every other month out of say... Probably 5000 or more angels. It just doesn't happen once they are free swimming and moved from the hatching tank to their first ten gallon.
So I had no idea - thought maybe the spraybar I rigged was too good and maybe the oxygen was supersaturated? Nah, gotta 80 gallon right next to it with more aeration and 50 or so breeder sized angels in it pairing off looking at me right now saying "oxygen is fine here, where's this mornings daphnia beeyatch?".

Hmmmm..... Then it hit me, that whole mildew thing.... I did a search and it sounds like sure enough that sealant kills fish.

So this thread is a little different - gonna see if this is a lightbulb problem or a pregnant woman problem. For those who don't know the metaphor, you can unscrew a lightbulb.

Given that the second batch of culls lasted longer I'm hypothesizing that the water change helped. I reached in and felt along all the seams and it was slimy feeling - but the glass was all nice and squeaky clean.

So my guess is that this mold and mildew inhibitor leaches out and forms a film over the silicone that is toxic. Obviously, it leaches into the water as well. I drained the tank and rubbed all the seams with a rag and that film came off. Then I wiped it down with acetic acid on a rag (concentrated vinegar, what they sell as an organic weed killer at landscaping stores). I figure they use that stuff to thin the silicone so it ought to pull out any surface stuff and its the worlds best calcium remover on glass (dry glass, don't douche your tank please).

Then I rinsed and rinsed while the siphon hose drained all the rinse water and now it is refilled. I'm going to wait a day and see if the seams get slimy again from this film leaching out and test with culls again.

My guess right now is that a lot of this gunk will leach out on first fill of the tank but with each rub of the surface more comes out and will be replaced less rapidly until it is sufficiently out and no longer toxic to fish. Logically, they started with X milligrams of that poison in the tube and Y milligrams leached out on first fill and all that rinsing and rubbing so we are starting at X-Y and whatever that number is, the gunk has to leach from deeper in the seam to get to the surface and I'd expect it will seal it off eventually. Problem is that I have no idea what amount is lethal or what amount already leached out. If it gets slimy again I will probably also jack up the heat to 90 or so since that should expand pores and help it ooze out.

I used a whole 10ounce tube minus maybe a half ounce I used in another tank (also slimy so just got 200 fry out of there and into a clean tank but none died and I see no stress so will watch for issues).

So this is a good test case for what to do of you eff up and use this stuff. Hoping the answer is to run it empty for a while then rub the gunk off, drain and refill once or twice as that is a LOT EASIER than tearing it down and rebuilding the whole tank. Fortunately I have access to plenty of healthy fish who have no future other than being recycled as compost for my garden so I won't feel the pain of losing a pet fish to stupidity.

Anyone know the makeup of that mold retardant? Wondering if carbon would adsorb it or if there is a way to break it down chemically. If I am correct, it forms a film that just kinda stays there until scrubbed off so it might be a lightbulb

 

[CHFIII]

NICE!
Read this info on the culprit compound.... I swear I am so impressed by the way the big chemical companies get around labeling requirements because no dietary issues are expected? Helllllo, this crap ought to clearly state that the anti-mildew agent contains arsenic and oops, that is not good for you. It ought to SCREAM do not use on any surfaces where it will come in contact with food or drinking water. Now to figure out how to get it out or neutralize it chemically


http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/chem_search/reg_actions/reregistration/fs_PC-012601_2-Jun-93.pdf

 

[CHFIII]

Update...
So I drained, wiped the seams repeatedly with a light scrubber pad then filled for a couple days and wiped the seams often. They were less slimy and stayed 'squeaky' longer. Drained again then did a good wipe with Clorox and let an inch of very bleachy water in the tank for a few hours since most of the silicone used was around the bottom seam. Then drained and rinsed for while it was draining while wiping it down to get all the bleach out. Refilled it and after 4 days put about 20 culls in there and everybody looks good in their own deformed way. Will probably let them remain in there with no water changes for a week or two to get a good test since normally there would be at least a few gallons replaced every day.... If two weeks worth of leaching doesn't raise the level of toxins to a point where the culls show adverse effects then I will assume it is safe, drain, refill and forget.

Oh - the Clorox might not have done much of anything but it is such a strong oxidizer I figured it might help break down any chemicals in the silicone.

...as previously mentioned I figure whatever leaches out of the caulk will leach less over time and have to come from deeper in the silicone but so far my assessment is that the initial fill will be toxic as hell and each successive fill will be less so. Obviously if I was putting a dozen discus in there I'd have stripped it all and redone it but that is a ton of work and for my purposes I figured the easy route would make for a good experiment to guide anyone who makes a similar goof in the future.

 

[adixon816]

I know this thread is a few days old, but you're supposed to use GE Silicone I Window and Door not GE Silicone II that's your issue. The mildicide is exactly what killed your fish.

 

[gnorris23]

I went to lowes a few months ago and asked which silicones they had in black without the mildew stuff and the guy tried to tell me that even the ge1 has the same stuff. ( it doesn't btw). But before going to a hardware store I would definitely research what your putting in your tank. If you want black silicone dow 732 is the way to go. Your never going to get all the chemicals out of your tank unless you take out all the silicone and re do it.


Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app

 

[CHFIII]

Yup - no doubt it was my screwup. I posted this because I was curious to see if it stays toxic. My experiment with the culls suggests that there is a ton of toxicity at first but after the aforementioned attempts to get the bad out the toxicity drops rapidly. That is important because I've heard many reports and debate about whether GE is putting it in Silicone 1 all or some of the time. Seems like a long cure followed by a test full with a cheap fish is prudent and if it appears the water is toxic then all may not be lost - it appears that this stuff is incredibly bad but once the top layer of it is leeched out the toxicity drops way off and doesn't return to levels that register on the fish quickly. I'd still do regular water changes and this tank will get revealed when I move my fish room in the next month or two but the good news is that it seems to go away pretty fast.

 

[adixon816]

Yeah but I am not certain it would go away entirely seeing as some of those mildicides are supposed to last 10 years. I think it will slowly leach out over time and while possibly with proper water changes stay at tolerable levels I overall don't think it's the best for the fish .

 

[livebearerfreak]

why not just take the silicone off, wash the glass corners, re-silicone with FISH save silicone???

 

[CHFIII]

why not just take the silicone off, wash the glass corners, re-silicone with FISH save silicone???

Uhm... I mentioned that I will do that but Iphone changed resealed to revealed which may have confused....

The point of the thread was not to say it is OK to use the stuff with the toxins in it. My point was "OK, so there are a lot of rumors floating around as to whether GE may or may not add this chemical to their Silicone 1 or they may not but different folks are reporting different things so if in doubt....."

Had I said "I used the wrong silicone and killed a fish" the collective "DUH!" in response would have wrapped up a useless thread.

...but if someone uses the Silicone I that is supposed to be safe but is not guaranteed to be safe and they kill a fish I'm thinking they'll likely make their next question "So... how toxic for how long?". Having already made the blunder and having an ample supply of reasonably sensitive fish scheduled for termination it seemed a good opportunity to investigate that question since I could find no answer to it on the web.

Short version is that if you use a supposedly safe silicone that is not promised to be safe then the following data might be useful:
1. Whether or not you suspect that your silicone may have this crap in it, have some patience! Fill once and run some pumps or air to circulate/agitate the water. Rub the seams a bit each day... if they feel 'Slimy' then rub gently til they are 'squeaky'.
2. Drain and rinse - the (flower!) garden needs water too.
3. Refill the tank, let the water age as you usually would and test the tank out with a fish you have not formed a close personal relationship with for as long as you can stand to let a perfectly good empty tank go to waste before adding a fish you are attached to.... if the test fish croaks, lather, rinse, repeat.

So my conclusion is pretty much that you want to use the right stuff but if the right stuff is laced with the wrong stuff all is probably not lost unless you put all your fish in there before following the above suggestions. If Angel culls are thriving after three weeks without water changes then it seems likely that this crap does most of it's oozing at the beginning and stabilizes pretty quickly. So this is a lessons learned section, right? I learned not to use the wrong stuff but if someone uses the right stuff that ...isn't then hopefully this thread will save someone else a lot of trouble. If not... damn, i wasted a lot of time ;-)

 

[CHFIII]

Yeah but I am not certain it would go away entirely seeing as some of those mildicides are supposed to last 10 years. I think it will slowly leach out over time and while possibly with proper water changes stay at tolerable levels I overall don't think it's the best for the fish .

Clearly.

Another lesson learned is that the wrong stuff gets a slimy coat or 'gel' on it that dries and then returns to gel (can tell from evaporation) if you run a scrubby over it you can see snotlike (new word!) evidence of it floating around. I'm not going to put ten years into this but my guess would be that the reason it lasts is because water turns the additive to that sticky gel that would normally just gel/dry/gel/dry/gel/dry but after you rub it off a few times it makes sense that the gel would have to ooze from deeper in the silicone bead and whatever the original quantity of snot-toxin (another new word, rolling now) it is reduced by each iteration of the snot-toxin removal methodology herein described so if after three iterations of desnottification (that's three!) regimen there are no signs of distress in the test fish after three weeks without the usual 10% daily changes I would be reasonably confident that the toxin level is below lethal levels and would continue to drop over time.