When to seperate pikes...pack-mentality wearing off?

[Cecropia]

Looking for advice from multiple pike keepers..

When do you KNOW when it's time to split pikes up? (mainly refering to my johannas) I know they lose the pack mentality and stop schooling if they aren't a pair. And I've read that the violence gets worse. I also know to take a decent percent of internet here-say lightly (ex. people saying pikes are boring, dull, killing machines that must be kept solo). This has led me to be very uncertain on what to do as far as what's best for my fish.

My 2 johannas haven't been schooling together for the past couple weeks, which apparently has been enough for the larger to gain a full 1/4" on the smaller one.

They are both going through a color change but the larger one is well ahead of the smaller one. It dominates the smaller one and they only follow each other around at feeding time, after that the smaller one retreats to it's spot in the drift wood. The damage over the past 2 weeks has been small cadual tears that heal in a day or two.

I would love to keep both in the same tank and if wondering which of these likely scenarios would most likely occur.

1. The larger one turns out to be male and the smaller female. When the smaller one catches up, they resume the tranquility they had before.

2. The violence escalates to the point I have to rehome the smaller one. I see this being an issue for the larger jo as well, as this will leave only one other large cichlid in the tank with the jag who may single him out.

3. The stress from being submissive kills the smaller pike. This pike has not once attempted to challenge the larger pike. I'm worried the stress could open her/him up to sickness. She still eats fine currently.

4. They are the same gender and the larger jo forces the smaller jo into territory to the left of the tank. My Jag and C. proteus reside on that side of the tank. The jag will ignore the smaller jo but I'm afraid the proteus will kill her as the proteus will challenge the smaller jo on site, and the smaller jo never fights back. This will ultimately lead to her death possibly?

Which do you think is most probable and what course of action do you think will most successfull for me to attempt keeping both jo's in the tank?

 

[Peanut_Power]

2 seems most likely. If they aren't attempting to pair up right now at this point then they probably aren't going to pair up. Its still a possibility mind you, but chances are they have already made up their minds and don't want anything to do with each other. As for the same size, it really just makes the battles more matched.

 

[Cecropia]

Figured as much, I still had some smidgin of hope never the less. I'll have to wait for her/him to get bigger before taking her back though. The fish in the LFS's display tank are a lil too big for her/him to handle just yet.

You can actually see the smaller pike in my other thread. The last pic of the larger pike has the smaller one's head in it's hiding spot in the background lol.

Now I have to start growing out something(s) to fill the hierachy gap now :/

 

[Conner]

What size are they? Mine started showing serious growth differences between 3 and 4", and my large one killed both the other two in a span of a few hours, when it was 5" and they were 3" (they didn't grow more than a half in the whole time I had them).

Now that the other two are gone, mine (a 6-7" female, I believe) is getting along great with a pair of alta's of similar size, and was getting along great with a much larger venezuelan, as well as various other cichlids.

 

[its_an_obsession]

right now i have three dwarfs creni's in a 40g with some eartheaters, sd's, and some other small community fish. 2 of the dwarf crenis have bonded and will chase the other male around sometimes.

i always judge whether to seperate or not depending on how agressive the other fish are and what are their intentions. mostly i find that the bonded pair only chases the lone pike when hes in their territory. and then it doesnt seem like they want to kill him, but more just get out of my area.

i start to worry when both fish want to square off alot, or the chasing is to dramatic and constant that i know the weaker fish will die soon.

my 2 cents on your situation...

im also worried about what the jag does when it gets bigger, they have a much bigger body and i had to seperate my jag out when it got to big.

next i think make sure it doesnt look like the johanna wants to really kill the other would be first. and second decide what you want out of both johannas, for example if ones always hiding in the corner then you dont get to enjoy seeing its beauty and its always scared and stressed.

i think a possible solution could be to add some additional fish to the tank, i always suggest silver dollars, give other fish to spread out aggression and they're never a fish to just get scared and hide in a corner, especially with a group of 4-6.

my most mellow cichlids have always been the ones that greg up in tanks with many other companions, and the most aggressive where the ones that grew up solo or with only 1 or 2 other tank mates.

 

[Cecropia]

my 2 cents on your situation...

im also worried about what the jag does when it gets bigger, they have a much bigger body and i had to seperate my jag out when it got to big.

next i think make sure it doesnt look like the johanna wants to really kill the other would be first. and second decide what you want out of both johannas, for example if ones always hiding in the corner then you dont get to enjoy seeing its beauty and its always scared and stressed.

i think a possible solution could be to add some additional fish to the tank, i always suggest silver dollars, give other fish to spread out aggression and they're never a fish to just get scared and hide in a corner, especially with a group of 4-6.

my most mellow cichlids have always been the ones that greg up in tanks with many other companions, and the most aggressive where the ones that grew up solo or with only 1 or 2 other tank mates.

Yeah, when I got off work today another issue popped up, someone has been taking small shots at the jag's tail. I had noticed it before but the marks heal quickly and are always gone the next day. This is the third occurence of the jag having mild tail damage. They match up with the marks on the small johanna's tail.

Adding more fish was my next plan of action, after that I think I'll be forced to rehome the smaller jo.

I was thinking of adding my geos but they're not large enough to avoid passes from my bichirs and they aren't in a large enough group. Plus they're pretty docile as far as geos go.

I had thought of adding a group of cons and a texas, the SDs around here are all pretty small and I don't know how quickly they'll grow. The LFS has filament barbs of adequate size but they only have 2 of them. The same store also has a juvie venezuelan at about 4", but I don't know about that.

I introduced a friend's 7" sveni female last month that I was to watch while he was on vacation. I had her in my tank about a week, and immediately became the bottom of the totem pole, with the larger jo, smaller jo, and proteus above her, even though the sveni was the largest in the tank. The larger jo of mine ignored all other pikes in the tank to seek that one out, and allowed the smaller jo free reign. I figured I might be able to reproduce this using the ven but I don't want ANY pike in my tank to cower in a corner all day, it wouldn't be right.

 

[Cecropia]

Plus, in my experience the jag ignores all non-cichlid fish. I'm not sure if my jos would behave the same way.

 

[Cecropia]

What size are they?

didn't see this post immediately but the largest is right at 6" and the smaller is about 5.5ish"

 

[its_an_obsession]

i think i would shy away from adding a texas. thats just me tho. cant have to many big show fish in one tank. also could make aggression worse

some convicts could work altho when the jag gets to max size any females could become dinner.

im still gonna push sd's. if the pike are only 6 inches and id imagine the jag is around the same size. then the sd's won't need to be too big. which is the nice thing about them. they're circular shape makes it so they can't fit in a predators mouth easily. i have a 13-14" male jag in one tank with 6 silver dollars. the smallest is probably only 3" in length and i have no problems.

i think the nice thing about that is that they will max out at about 4" (i avoid redhooks,they'll get bigger and i think they are uglier). so u can add 4-6 of them and not put to much more bioload on the tank, as compared to if u got other larger community fish like bala sharks or tinfoil barbs, which will hit 12".

while u might get them small, seems like u have other tanks that u can beef them up in over the course of the next few weeks.

 

[Cecropia]

i think i would shy away from adding a texas. thats just me tho. cant have to many big show fish in one tank. also could make aggression worse

some convicts could work altho when the jag gets to max size any females could become dinner.

im still gonna push sd's. if the pike are only 6 inches and id imagine the jag is around the same size. then the sd's won't need to be too big. which is the nice thing about them. they're circular shape makes it so they can't fit in a predators mouth easily. i have a 13-14" male jag in one tank with 6 silver dollars. the smallest is probably only 3" in length and i have no problems.

i think the nice thing about that is that they will max out at about 4" (i avoid redhooks,they'll get bigger and i think they are uglier). so u can add 4-6 of them and not put to much more bioload on the tank, as compared to if u got other larger community fish like bala sharks or tinfoil barbs, which will hit 12".

while u might get them small, seems like u have other tanks that u can beef them up in over the course of the next few weeks.

Yeah, I've got a few empty tanks lying around lol, may have to try the SDs in the 40L I picked up, even though I don't particularly care for the SDs and the girl really doesn't like them. I do think the metallic sheen they have will liven up the tank as I've been desperately looking for a way to color it up. Wish petsmart still had the $1 tetra sale going on

I kinda gave up on dithers with these guys a while back when they took out a 14 member-strong shoal of 2-4" giant danios in 2 days. I don't think I'll have that problem with SDs. (it was mainly the bichirs that got them).