Why are air breathig fish considered prehistoric?

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wild bill

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I have often wondered why fish like Bichirs and Lung fish are conidered prehistoric. After all we were all supposed to have evolved from creatures in the water. Would it not make sense then that fish who breathe fresh air and can move across land are further evolved than other fish. What do others think as these are just my thoughts.
 
to my understanding...
Any of the "prehistoric" fish haven't really evolved over the life time of the species. Fossils of these fish are either identical or very similar to the fish that we find today.
 
It's because they haven't changed or "evolved" they're considered "prehistoric" fish.
 
How far back do we go then as humans have changed somewhat but still some what resemble prehistoric man. Just look at how much larger people are now on average than even 40 years ago. Maybe some creatures just change more over time than others. It seems confusing because we were supposed to evolved from apes yet we don't really no what prehistoric apes looked like to compare modern ones. There fore there may have been fish very similar to modern fish in prehistoric times but they have not been found yet. Or they were so small they just deteriated so much they can't be found. The reason I say this is I watched a show and they claimed that relatives of the horse were once the size of a cat.
I sometimes think that scientist often mislead us for their own gain. When I was a kid David Suzuki was telling the world we were headed for another Ice Age. That got him no where and then he came up with Global Warming well now he is a hero. Now lets take a look at how long they have been recording temperatures and it is only about 135 years a real small percentage even if the Earth were 1000000 years old.
I don't want to sound stupid but it seems like these guys can't keep their stories straight. How do we really know what fish looked like ages ago we can only guess. There are some now saying that the dinosaurs may have been birds and not lizards.
 
Hi WildBill. You have a whole bunch of questions in there and most have pretty clear answers but not in the space of a forum post. If you have access to a public library check out some of Richard Dawkins books, particluarly "The Greatest Show On Earth" it's a great book that answers nearly all your questions on evolution. As for climate change that is a whole other world of science. Happy reading.
 
I sometimes think that scientist often mislead us for their own gain.

I'll see your dramatic generalisation and raise you another. Some elements of all sides of this discussion (picking the climate change one first) mislead for their own benefit. Some mislead for piety, some (a great many) for financial reasons, some because they are natural imps who court controversy and brook dissent for nothing other than fun. (IMO) the worst of all are those in the media, on all sides of the media, who sensationalise and misrepresent all facts to try and get a byline or sell a copy. Perhaps the worst actor in the whole play is a general public who are unable to use critical reasoning to cut through the noise at each end of the argument.

In terms of the evolution piece - an average change in stature across much of the population is about improved diet and a few other factors, not 'evolution' per se. Many cultures are also fatter, not an evolutionary change either. But there's no advantage to these changes, there is a change in the average appearance of certain groups of people but that doesn't constitute evolution outside a newspaper headline. Other examples of appearance changes (phylogenic adaptation) are evolution (think Cichla species - mostly they are visual and some slight physical differences rather than gross anatomical changes) but they are distinct populations and counted as different species.

The thing about science that annoys you is what I treasure - the state of knowledge develops and changes as more information becomes available from greater, broader and deeper research. Anomalies are brought to light, challenges to convention are argued and fought over, supporting evidence is weighed. Avoiding the lunatic fringes you can see that most scientists are describing the world according to evidence (not dogma) as it stands at the time. Some things are inarguable - gravity, for example, but the impact and effects of gravity are all being dissected and discussed in ever larger hypotheses.

A few minutes with Google would have brought you an exact definition, but primitive fishes are generally fish that closely resemble something that is known from the fossil record. Arapaima, for example, have changed little over tens or hundreds of millions of years. Cichlid fossils date back up to 50 million years but have changed significantly in response to competitive environments and filling niches, and no surviving cichlid reflects those early fossils. I seem to recall that there are also some classifications of, for example, jaw or skull articulations (distinct jumps in anatomy which aide the survival and breeding chances of a species etc.) that also define primitive from modern fish.

Finally one point of confusion you have which is common - we did not evolve "from" apes in the sense the we were chimpanzees one minute and then suddenly jumped up and started smoking cigarettes and swilling cappuccinos and waxing our backs. We share a common ancestry with primates. Going way back (tens of millions of years) there was a common ancestor, that is who we descended from, not any primate that is living today who also have that species as a common ancestor. There have been other members of the Homo species over the past 3 million years but they have all died out or been absorbed by cross breeding.

DNA studies are starting to show some very revealing traits and patterns regarding the evolution and migration of the human species, though again the data is sometimes open for interpretation; and scientists are still people and get caught up in petty squabbles and outright sledging matches about often very minor points. One could say the get a religious fervour about their science. There is still much to learn and understand and identify about human evolution, though. That is exciting to me, it doesn't call into question the valid knowledge we already have, as long as you are listening to the right voices and avoiding the sensationalised rubbish on television that are developed (mainly) for financial reasons. My rule of thumb is that if the narrator of a documentary talks like Sir David Attenborough then I will take it seriously. If the narrator talks like he's reading the script for America's Worst Police Videos then I presume that is to cover up the lack of actual content.

Cheers,
'Bear
 
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The question is not well defined to begin with. Lumping air breathing species into simply bichirs and lungfish is misleading, since there are many more species that are air-breathers that would never be considered as ancient species. I can't see bettas and gouramies being considered as ancient species. Add to that the primitive species with direct acceptance in belonging to similar lines found in the fossil record that are not, presently, air-breathers; such as the Australian lungfish causes conflict in the initial question, as well. And, many of the more readily accepted ancient species have never been considered as 'air-breathers' throughout their evolutionary lines; such as sharks, marine rays, chimeras, hagfish ,etc.
 
I have often wondered why fish like Bichirs and Lung fish are conidered prehistoric. After all we were all supposed to have evolved from creatures in the water. Would it not make sense then that fish who breathe fresh air and can move across land are further evolved than other fish. What do others think as these are just my thoughts.

While it is an advanced evolutionary trait, people tend to think of it as "primitive" not in an ichthyological perspective, but from a general biological perspective.

After all, they may be very advanced members of the Teleostei, but they are "basal" to tetrapoda. This from whence the primitive connotation arrives.
 
After reading other thoughts and knowledible advice I can see how we can get a lot of different angles on this thread. My thought now is leaning that some of these ancient fish were so far advanced that there was no weed for them to change as much as other creatures have. Then again as quickly as the human race is changing and not always for the better maybe we are way behind the animals.
I do agre with alot of what Bear said we truly do need to weed through what we choose to beieve and follow. What I do know is that the world we live in is never the same 2 days in a row and creatures that are going to survive need to be able to adapt.
 
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